Fast vs. Reckless

there's such a fine line between driving fast and driving reckless.

any thoughts?

If you make the corner, it's FAST.
If you f*ck up, it's RECKLESS.

haha

I have to reply since I was chastized for breaking the 150mph barrier recently on a public highway. It all depends on the car, the conditions, the innocent people you put at risk, and the level of risk. I feel safer in a 911 at 120 than I do in say a Jeep CJ-7 at 60. When I do warp speeds, it is always in low traffic and high visibility situations. Speeding down residential streets is ALWAYS reckless. On a clear 3 or more lane highway with a mile of clear visibility, I don't think triple digit speeds are unreasonable in a well kept Porsche. (Emphasis on "clear")

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Tyson Schmidt
72 911 Cabriolet
92 C-2 Cabriolet

Ok....explain "chastised"....

Did you take a shot in the ribs from the wife or did you get yanked by the PO-Lice?

Curious as I recently talked my way out of a 90+ ticket while shutting down from 120....

No, actually it was from the fellow board members here at Pelican. They were actually just concerned for my driving/prison record and didn't want to see me take a ride in a patrol car. But how can one resist the temptation to open up a new Porsche? Certainly not me.

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Tyson Schmidt
72 911 Cabriolet
92 C-2 Cabriolet

Originally posted by BRAINIAC:
I have to reply since I was chastized for breaking the 150mph barrier recently on a public highway. It all depends on the car, the conditions, the innocent people you put at risk, and the level of risk. I feel safer in a 911 at 120 than I do in say a Jeep CJ-7 at 60. When I do warp speeds, it is always in low traffic and high visibility situations. Speeding down residential streets is ALWAYS reckless. On a clear 3 or more lane highway with a mile of clear visibility, I don't think triple digit speeds are unreasonable in a well kept Porsche. (Emphasis on "clear")

it's the theory of relativity and the perception of speed. when a commercial plane is ready for take-off, it has to reach a speed well over 100mph...for the average passenger, it doesnt feel fast...

if you drive your porsche 120 on an open and "clear" highway, it may not seem as fast as driving around a wide rotary doing 70....

it always comes down to a frame of reference, the closer you are to objects, the faster it feels you're going....if you drive your porsche out on a Logan Airport runway in the middle of nowhere with nothing around for 2 miles, that will seem "slow" ...

but put the same porsche in an interstate off ramp with trees close by, that will seem fast..

Well, that's right Tyson. We were just speaking out of concern. I was one of those speaking out, and I never believed you were endangering life or property. I'd agree these cars can be secure at triple-digit speeds. That's what they were made for.

When I get on a freeway with light traffic and 70mph posted speed, my car asks for more than the 75 or 80 mph speeds I drive. In fifth gear, just a little more pressure with my right foot and I'm at 85, which is the very lower tip of the 'power band' (3.5 grand) From that point, the car just wants to go to 4 grand, then 4.5, then 5. In shirt, the car wants to cruise at 90+ mph. It so happens I get better gas mileage above 85 than below it. No kidding.

And yes, I would say there are many, many chances to be foolish and reckless on public roads. I may be more conservative than most, and I'd say it's pretty easy to make stupid judgments. It's far more difficult to drive correctly. Even if it's fast. Especially if it's fast.

As I've said before, I feel VERY BAD on those (mercifully rare) occasions when I was not in complete control of my vehicle. My sttyle of motoring is a 'control' sytle.

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'83 SC

Well, I had a first class lesson in complete stupidity today.
I was driving my 911 at 60mph on a 4-lane non devided highway in moderately heavy traffic. I was coming up on a slower vehicle and began to anticipate changing lanes. Then, all of a sudden from nowhere I hear this god-awful motorcyle scream blow by me. Stupid son of a ***** was topped out, 150+ WITH A GIRL ON THE BACK. No helmets, wearing shorts. The idiot was barely in control of the bike. There is NOW WAY I could have seen them coming at that speed if I had pulled out to pass. You would be reading my obit Monday morning. I cought up to this ******* later on in the day and got his plate number. I plan to have a cop run it. My suspision is that this dick was a cop. That puts a whole different spin on things doesn't it.
Now I'm no angel, but when I do top end or high speed runs there is NO ONE on the road for as far as I can see. One benefit to living in a sparcely populated flat area.

By chastised Tyson might have meant by me, I think. But my concern was less about the threat Tyson poses to the general public (hey, that's a given ), but about the legal hassles of getting busted for going that fast. Shortly after hitting that speed, he passed a police cruiser, if my memory serves. Triple-digit speeding can mean a night in jail and a big legal bill.

Aside from that, though, let me say something that probably won't be popular. With the exception of rural driving, with the kind of high visibility situations Tyson describes, I think these cars are generally more of a public hazard than we all like to admit to ourselves. In urban situations, or coastal or canyon driving where it's a public road and your visibility is (necessarily) restricted -- in other words, in most of the places I drive -- I think that the disparity between the capabilites of a 911 and that of your average car is so great that (as much as I hate to admit it) my car is probably making the roads less, rather than more, safe.

Now, I'd say much worse things about cell-phone-chatting numbskulls in enormous and unweildy SUVs. The biggest danger on the roads comes from operator negligence. That most of us are thinking about our driving while we're out there makes us safer and less threatening to other drivers. But if we were actively thinking about what we were doing, and driving cars that had similar driving characteristics to your typical Toyota Camry, then I would have to say that things would be safer still.

Why? Well, that we can brake faster than drivers who might be close behind us can, or that we can accelerate out of situations faster than people in slow cars might predict, and that we can take corners faster than ordinary drivers who might think it's safe to match the speed of the guy ahead of you -- all of these things probably reduce the overall safety level of a situation where a very big bunch of people are sharing the same roads.

Having said that, I don't want to give up driving my car the way I enjoy driving it. But if you asked me to design a traffic system where I could choose the cars for everyone to drive, and if you told me that safety was the overriding goal you were after, then I would probably give everyone Camrys, or Volvos, or something that other drivers would be able to reliably predict the behavior of, and cars that wouldn't perform better than your average driver was capable of handling. It would be a boring world, of course, but strictly speaking, I think it would be a safer one.

Then again, if I were to start a list of what makes driving dangerous, fast cars driven by owner/mechanic/enthusiasts wouldn't even be in the top 50.

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Jack Olsen
1973 911 T (3.6) sunroof coupe
jackolsen@mediaone.net

[This message has been edited by JackOlsen (edited 04-08-2001).]

The State Patrol has said time and again that excessive speed is the proximate cause of 80% of accidents. I think this is Bull$#!t. I agree with Jack. Driving without thinking is the cause of those accidents.

And I'll agree with Jack that our cars present some unique dangers. I like using a little compression to slow down sometimes. This means my brake lights don't warn anyone behind me.

Further, taking these cars out near the limits of their capabilities is MADNESS on public roads. In order to really get a danger 'rush,' I'd have to take the local 50 mph corners at 120!

Believe me, 100 mph feels secure but if the road you're on has any curves, the next surprise obstruction on the road could kill you.

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'83 SC

"Fast" is when you're flying down the road at about 2 or 3 times the speed of traffic, paying attention to EVERYTHING around you on the road, anticipating other driver's actions, watching for cops, correcting for slip angles and obstructions subconsciously and instaneously, and NEVER being surprised by anything.

"Reckless" is when you just floor it and expect everybody ELSE to do all that for you.

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Clay McGuill '66 912, '97 Jeep Cherokee www.geocities.com/the912guy

Here in Germany 180kph (about 110 MPH) is not considered either fast or reckless. It is just the normal traffic speed on the open Autobahn. 240kph (about 150mph) is fast but still not reckless as long as the conditions are correct. Everything is relative but a little more relative in the Porsche.

OK...Reckless is driving above your experience on an unexplored roadway with curves or bad weather or driving while head up ass.....

I have no problem burying the needle on the track that I had a few laps on or a clear highway during the daylight hours with no one around.

But if I get passed by some weenie doing warp nine in traffic and he buys the farm, I would have no problem pulling him outta the burning wreck to spit in his face.....then he/she is jeopardizing my life. That person can kill himself, but not me or my family.

Of course I may not taken enough medication today and could be wrong.

MikeZ - - I would have no problem using my cell phone to call the police to report some ******* driving recklessly in traffic at warp 9. I agree with you; let them buy the farm, but no way they are putting me, my family and other innocent drivers at risk.
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OK, this one is really gonna get you folks angry. I don't think anyone should be allowed to drive above 65 mph, unless, UNLESS they have attended, sucessfully some type of high speed drivers school. Yeah, yeah, I know; this is totally unrealistic and unenforcable. But food for thought, I bet 75 percent of American drivers could not pass the drivers exam in Germany on the first testing!
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Chuck
83SC

I've been brought up short by Chuck a time or two, always reasonably, and I have to agree again here. I'd estimate that at least 95% of American drivers would fail the German driving test miserably.

It will never happen (oil and auto financial interests are too great), but I would be a big advocate of a more "European" model of driver preparedness. It is difficult to get a drivers' license there. Here, you need little more than $14. This low level of training is consistent with my observations on public roads.

The more "European" model would reduce traffic, encourage public transportation, dramatically increase safety, save gas, lower emissions, etc., etc., etc.

I'd be a HUGE supporter. But it will never happen. "Change management" in our country is done with dollars, for dollars.

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'83 SC

Let me concur with the school of thought on this board that argues that the most important ingredient in safe driving is being alert and thoughtful. In my experience, dangerous situations and accidents are almost always caused by people who for whatever reason aren't paying proper attention to the road, and the frequency of such accidents is exacerbated by the inattention of accident victims--I can remember numerous times when my own attentiveness was the only thing that prevented someone else from slamming into me. I drive my car hard, harder than most probably, and I've never been in an accident, not even one that wasn't my fault. I know that luck has played a role in that fact, but I also know (and this may sound very arrogant, but I think it's true) that on many occasions it was my own driving ability and attentiveness that prevented a collision. You could send every driver in the country to Skip Barber racing school, but that won't prevent them from daydreaming behind the wheel and otherwise being incompetent. A few years ago, all the safety fanatics gravely warned that raising the speed limit from 55 to 65 would result in a gruesome increase in highway deaths. In fact, highways are safer than they've ever been, and the 70 and 75 mph highways don't suffer a greater accident rate than the 65 mph highways. Safety could be improved even further if the police would simply enforce the proper functioning of highway lanes--that is, people who dawdle in the left lane should get tickets, and lots of them. Most unsafe situations I see on highways are caused by jackasses going 65 in the left lane, causing people to stack up behind them waiting for a chance to swerve into one of the right lanes to get by. Speed isn't unsafe; people are.

Another problem is relative velocity. The minimum legal speed limit on the interstates is still 45 mph! Someone going 45 is more of a hazard than those travelling 75 with traffic. That's like having people parking their cars on streets with a 30 mph speed limit. In addition, most people don't understand the distances that are required to stop from highway speed.

T

Hey Pat Alive....what if that guy made a slight teeny weeny little miscalculation while passing me at 100+mph?

Something like dropping his cigarette in his open beer while reaching for his favorite 8 trac tape of Molly Hatchet, Live?

The resultant spin would take out me out while driving in my SUV with my wife and three kidlettes....same scenario different circumstances. Triple digit speed on a crowded highway does not mix. I especially think it is dangerous when I observe Police vehicles doing an excessive speed w/o lights and sirens while tailgating ....scares the old ladies and pisses me off.

I scraped enough of these idjuts off the pavement while working on a rescue ambulance. Usually the only left alive is the drunk babbling idiot that started it.

Over the years I have done some crazy things in my life, but high speed high jinks on the highway is where I draw the line. Save it for the track.

Just my humble opinion, but I'm sticking to it....now back to you regularly scheduled program.

Slower traffic keep right. You get a ticket for not doing that in some places and I wish one of them was California !

Jean-Paul