How much would you pay for an RSR clone?

[rennch]

Lets assume TRE or Zuffenhaus quality on these builds. I think I have a pretty good idea now though, thanks.

[911teo]

Let's say they dropped my car in the ocean during transport....

I would pay the towards the top of your range for a quality build (Zuffenhaus/TRE) depending on the variables.

There are 4 things you need to consider that go into determine the value of such cars:
1) Parts
2) Labor
3) Little details
4) Time

1) This is the easiest to assess. A 935 suspension set up will bring more than a Tbar setup. A G50/01 transmission will bring more than a 915 and less than a G50/31 etc. It gets a little trickier with the motor depending on what the final use of the car will be (racing, DE, daily driver etc). The rarity and appeal of some parts (RSR distributor or G50/31 transmission etc) affect the value via their cost and the time (see last paraghraph)

2) There are lots of different skills that are involved in building one of these properly and not everybody has access to the right tools. I would pay a hefty premium for a car built by an established shop.

3) You could have 2 cars wit similar specs both built at Zuffenhaus one costing $50k and the other $75k and the difference could be insignificant for some and important to others. Custom made RSR flares vs early 930 flares, RSR oil duct vs custom made, triangulated strut brace vs custom made RSR one etc... some people would not justify the difference. Some would demand it to be done in a particular way

4) Immediate avaliability... I'd pay top to have the car on my doorstep tomorrow. If it is going to take 6 months then I might look and do it myself (or contract someone to do it).

[Matt Monson]

Originally Posted by emptyo

Nope, I said nothing of the sort. I'm doing some research for a business for a buddy in a different state. Interesting you mention 3R though. Thanks!

If I am reading this right (and I am reading into it. ) as a business model it's not very viable if you are talking about actually owning the cars. As Luke has pointed out, the actual cost of building them usually exceeds their resale value. Even if you model your personal labor as a shop to be $25/hour cost, there's still overhead and everything else that brings the actual cost per hour more up into the $50-60/hr range. When you roll into that, 200-400 hours of work, you are personally putting in $10,000-20,000 in labor as a business. It's really hard to pull that back out as a profit. Most everyone complains about the $80-100/hr rate most shops charge, the fact of the matter is while most shops make more money on labor than they do on parts, they still don't laugh all the way to the bank with any sort of silly margins there. I know this from the personal experience of running a shop.

I have always laughed at the ads out there for "$75k invested, will sacrifice for $37,500!" If it was an investment, that's a pretty poor return on your money.

I think for this to be a viable business option you've got to take the approach that Autofarm or Paul Stephens have taken over in the UK. You would need to offer a conversion "kit" with several different packages and market yourself as a conversion shop.

And if you were going to try and buy some cars and do them either just for marketing, or to test and see if it's a viable thing, the obvious choice would be the 74-77 chassis just because they are the cheapest of the bunch with what has happened to longnose prices in the last 2-3 years. And then that poses the question of whether or not you do backdating and longnose conversions or if you focus on more of an IROC/3.0RSR look and avoid the step of adding the long nose. Profitibility comes with economy of scale and having a system in place for efficiency. Even though each car that comes in with have a different starting point, having a specific action plan for each build will make it as profitable as possible...

[rennch]

Originally Posted by Matt Monson

I think for this to be a viable business option you've got to take the approach that Autofarm or Paul Stephens have taken over in the UK. You would need to offer a conversion "kit" with several different packages and market yourself as a conversion shop.

Hmm....interesting idea

[DW SD]

Not to knock anything coming out of our favorite shops, but since they do work at $80 to $100 per hour, they are accustomed to trying to get things done quickly. And details can be overlooked. No one is perfect. At the end of the day, a guy in the garage might be better at building the cars than a shop, especially, if he can get the right advice about which parts, the hot setup, etc.. It really just depends upon who is doing the work and how meticulous they are.

I believe my own car is worth about $40k to the right buyer. It comes with "papers" or provenance as it was written up in Excellence. That would likely add some to the value to the right buyer. It is also highly documented around here, which is a "trail" for the next owner.

All that said, at $40k, it isn't worth much more than the sum of the parts. The paint, FG parts and body work making up about $10k of the parts. $40k would offer me about zero $ for hundreds of hours of my work.

And, were I selling, I would be glad to have any shop evaluate my work against their own. Were I buying, I'd be inclined to evaluate the caliber of the work, as opposed to name of the shop that built it. I would have high expectations if Zuffenhaus or TRE built it, though.

In a nutshell, I think the car is worth the sum of the parts + up to 100% premium if the buyer likes the modifications and the quality of the execution.

Doug

[911teo]

If this is the case (setting up a business) then u need to answer the question if you can sell 6-8-12 cars per year at $60-70k?

Autofarm and PS work on commission only. So you go there, pick from the 3-4 std options (plus some customizable detail) drop $30-35k and go back in 12 months to pick up your car.

You could try and beat them on availability.... invest $200k on stock... and then build them as you sell them. Stick to blacks, silvers, yellows, oranges... standardize the process....

I looked into it... I do not necessarily believe these cars trade at a discount if done right and bya reputable shop, but the margins are thin and I am not sure the mkt is ready.

In 5-7 yrs time when even the new cars will be so watered down that people will look backward then it will be a good opportunity...

[88911coupe]

Without putting too much thought into my answer I'd say you can probably pick one of for less than what it costs to do...

[nine11speedster]

I have a friend who told me recently how much he had paid for an RSR clone, i almost fainted right there. Price? 120K USD
I m not too savvy with the Vintage racing scene, but he said if the clone is done correctly, F.I.A. will allow such car to participate in their sanctioned race? (don't know if it make sense).
Anyway, i guess the car is at least 95% correct at that price....

[911teo]

Originally Posted by DW SD

Not to knock anything coming out of our favorite shops, but since they do work at $80 to $100 per hour, they are accustomed to trying to get things done quickly. And details can be overlooked. No one is perfect. At the end of the day, a guy in the garage might be better at building the cars than a shop, especially, if he can get the right advice about which parts, the hot setup, etc.. It really just depends upon who is doing the work and how meticulous they are.

....

Doug

I totally agree with this statement. A car built by a shop is easier to sell though and it's like having a certified quality stamp. I would personally pay a premium because of the "perceived" piece of mind.

These cars are starting to be bought by car enthusiasts that are not necessarily Porsche enths... This is where being a "known" shop pays.

[DW SD]

Originally Posted by 911teo

I totally agree with this statement. A car built by a shop is easier to sell though and it's like having a certified quality stamp. I would personally pay a premium because of the "perceived" piece of mind.

These cars are starting to be bought by car enthusiasts that are not necessarily Porsche enths... This is where being a "known" shop pays.

If EVERYTHING else were equal, I would buy the car built by the reputable shop. Problem is no two cars are really alike.

Heck, to the average Barrett Jackson attendee, your car and mine would look alike. I would trade you for your call all day long!

Tough part about this is comparing apples to apples. Engine build, displacement, chassis mods, suspension design and setup, wheels and tires, trans + gearing, cooling (brake and oil), paint quality, etc, etc, etc play into the overall value. All can vary massively. Since most of these projects are custom, and have a million variables, it is tough to compare apples to apples.

I almost bought a cobra kit before I decided to do a 911. I decided not to buy one, since the finished cars were trading for 75% to 85% of the cost of the build parts and I wanted to build it myself. That seemed like a lost leader.

Doug

[rennch]

One of the Porsche Mags had an article on Autocar UK, and I'm sure I have it, but I can't track it down. Anyone happen to know which issue it was?

Here's another question...if you were shopping for one of these conversions, would it be a positive or a negative to you that the tub was a mid-year galvanized tub backdated to a longhood?

[DW SD]

Originally Posted by emptyo

One of the Porsche Mags had an article on Autocar UK, and I'm sure I have it, but I can't track it down. Anyone happen to know which issue it was?

Here's another question...if you were shopping for one of these conversions, would it be a positive or a negative to you that the tub was a mid-year galvanized tub backdated to a longhood?

It depends who is buying:
For me, I think neutral to positive, as long as it doesn't conflict with emissions testing laws. California must be pre-76 to be smog exempt. But if you are racing it in a vintage class, then the date on the chassis is likely more important.

Doug

[DW SD]

I remember a really nicely done (Auto Associates or other reputable North East shop) RSR clone being sold on ebay in the last year. It was silver with black lettering. Real RSR wheels, 3.6, very nice car. Anyone remember what it sold for?

Doug

[911teo]

It depends. Some clones are bought for historic racing. Then u need a period correct tub (pre 73 or 74 for a 74 RS clone).

Still I think you are asking the wrong crowd. Your target audience is not the Porsche aircooled fanatic. Your target is their friends.

The guys that take a ride in one of these and see them leaving a 997 C4S in the dust....

The guy that has $50-60k for a sports car. He can buy a Boxster, a used M3 etc but the thought of an older 911 is exciting.

For these guys the best would be a 964 backdate to whatever they want. ABS, working aircon, power steering.....

The retro look is a new fashion...

I think the fanatic 911 enthusiasts either builds it himself (Doug, Tom et alii) or pays a shop to do it EXACTLY like he/she wants it.

[911teo]

Doug at $0k your car would be a steal. Call me 1st if u ever decide to sell it...

[DW SD]

Originally Posted by 911teo

Doug at $0k your car would be a steal. Call me 1st if u ever decide to sell it...

You got it! You have first right of refusal on my car.

Doug

[911teo]

obviously there is a 4 missing...

[RLJ]

In todays world there are enought wealty gear heads that want a turn key hot rod. That is why we are seeing the early car prices going crazy. Yes it is apples and oranges as to each car. Based on finish, running gear and all of the other things that go into a price.

Don't knock a car because it was not built by Wilhoit, Gamroth, or TRE. Jeff Smith works out of his garage! Some folks are craftsmen and some don't have a clue.

Randy Jones
1971 "Iris the Slut"

[rennch]

Originally Posted by RLJ

In todays world there are enought wealty gear heads that want a turn key hot rod. That is why we are seeing the early car prices going crazy. Yes it is apples and oranges as to each car. Based on finish, running gear and all of the other things that go into a price.

Don't knock a car because it was not built by Wilhoit, Gamroth, or TRE. Jeff Smith works out of his garage! Some folks are craftsmen and some don't have a clue.

Randy Jones
1971 "Iris the Slut"

I tend to think along these lines as well. I think there's a difference between a full restoration and doing a period-correct hot rod that fires the same senses when you're driving. My 69 3.0 feels like it's an engine with wheels strapped to it, and sounds like it too. Its a very visceral driving experience. I think anyone that might go for a used M3 or a new Boxter for the same price might be able to sense that you'd get a more exhilarating experience with an early Porsche than you will with any modern car. That's why I think the market for those folks might supersede our "enthusiast" market.

That said, I've enjoyed everyone's comments and discussion about this. Thanks.

[ttweed]

Just a datapoint--if anyone is interested--the Black Forest Smurfmobile RSR could be had for $60K here in San Diego right now. Professionally built by Mark Kinninger, a very well known and respected mechanic in Lo Cal, it is fairly immaculate, very fast (stock 3.6 power), with extra race goodies. 3rd overall at the Parade autox last July, constant TTOD threat in Zone 8.




TT