Ignition/Starter Problem Update

Well, I'm letting my mechanic tackle this, because I've got personal stuff that would prevent me from getting to the car for over a week. I just spoke with him, and he's already replaced the ignition switch, which evidently restored the "feel" back to the ignition, but the engine/starter are still turning over in the "ON" position, which of course means the starter doesn't stop.

Any idea? Are there any relays in this system?

I'd love to reduce the troubleshooting time @ $60/hour!!! I'm already in the hot seat with my better half, especially after my experience with AAA last night, bht that's another story entirely.......

Thanks everyone!

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Michael
'78 911SC Euro

The starter's nose gear may still be engaged upon the ring gear. Here's what I'd do:

Turn the ignition switch to "on." Not to the "start" position. If the starter does not run, I'd figure that the 'ignition' curcuit and the 'starting' circuit are not fused together, like they may have been before. This means that if the starter is not disengaging after starting, it is not because the ignition switch is trying to run the starter all the time. Hope I have not been too unclear here.

That being the case, I'd remove and inspect (possibly rebuild) the starter.

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'83 SC

If, as Superman says, the starter pinion is still engaged to the ring-gear, try puting the car in gear and rock it back and forth a bit. It may free up and disengage. This was a common problem on an Alfa I used to own.

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Doug
'81 SC Coupe (aka: "Blue Bomber")
Canada West Region PCA
members.home.net/zielke/911SC.htm

Thanks everyone!

Unfortunately, the starter is engaging in the "ON" position, as opposed to the "START" position. As such, it'll start the engine, but will keep running. Something is causing the starter to activate in the "ON" position at the ignition switch, despite the installation of a brand new switch!

Is there anything that would cause the "ON" and "START" positions to become one?

sounds like you solinoid is either binding or the contacts are welded shut, I would remove the solinoid and test it.

good luck
Tim in Sac

Have you played with it since the new ignition switch went in?

when I turn my ignition switch to the plain "on" position, I hear the CDI unit whistle, but nothing else happens. One more click and, of course, the starter operates.

If, in the "on" position, your starter operates (that is, engine off - turn to "on" but not to the start position, if your starter operates), then it (the solenoid) is getting voltage and it should not. With the ignition switch being new, this suggests a wiring problem that would need to be traced.

If (engine and key off) turning the key only to the "on" position runs the CDI unit but does not start the car, then the problem is not in the wiring. In this case, perhaps turning the key to the "start" position starts the car like it should, but then letting go of the key (letting it return to the "on" position) does not disengage the starter. In this case, the starter and engine behave normally, but the starter gear and the engine ring gear stay together when they should move apart. This is where Doug's advice comes in. He suggests rocking the car back and forth while in gear. If you cannot get those two gears to separate, then the starter will have to be removed.

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'83 SC

the starter is stuck in the ring gear teeth due to galling of their respective gears. sounds like time to yank the engine and put on a new ring gear and replace the starter as well. it probably ran too long on the ring gear at a zillion miles an hour, and it's toast.

Actually, it functions properly, I mean the starter engages, and starts the engine, but it keeps running. If you turn it off, and try again, the starter is disengaging, because it will engage with a key turn. I'm assuming this is because it "activates" when the ignition switch is in the "ON" position, rather than the "START" position.

the only reason it will stay engaged when you let go of the key is the gears hanging in each other. if it can't retract the drive gear, the solenoid remains in it's "power to the starter" position regardless of key position. the battery's hooked to it. it doesn't need the ignition switch to keep functioning if the drive gear doesn't pull back.

Ok, I believe I understand what you're saying now. With the starter gear being engaged, the solenoid is being "forced" or "told" to remain activated, so at any key position past accessory, the starter motor is going to run.

What has me real puzzled, is how could this happen while driving down the road? I could see this happening when starting the car, or maybe even turning it off, but what in the heck would cause this thing to go haywire while simply driving down the road?

Is it possible that the solenoid failed while driving down the road, causing the starter to activate? How would the failure of the solenoid fry the ignition switch?

Is my task now to replace the solenoid, provided the gears are unharmed?

Thanks!

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Michael
'78 911SC Euro

Well, Mr. Walker's right again.

The whole thing may have been caused by a toasted ignition switch. but now, with the drive gear refusing to disengage, you surely need to remove the starter, with solenoid, at least. Mr. Walker suggests engine removal to replace the ring gear. I'd like to think that the starter can be disengaged, removed, rebuilt and everything will be fine. But I do believe Mr. Walker knows what he's talking about.

Here's something I do know. The ring gear is bigger than a foot in doameter with probably a couple hundred teeth. The starter drive gear is about an inch in diameter with maybe 3-5 teeth. The drive gear and starter are designed to turn slowly (relatively) and for a very brief duration. Too fast or too long kills them. If your drive gear got stuck in the ring gear while your car was running, the starter spun way too fast and for way too long.

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'83 SC



[This message has been edited by Superman (edited 04-14-2001).]

you could try just replacing the starter. if you hear a lot more noise when cranking, than you used to hear, the ring gear teeth are damaged too. if you ignore the ring gear teeth, you will soon be back in the same boat. it will at least repetedly kill starter drive teeth. you can feel the teeth with your finger when the starter is out. rotate the engine to check them all. DON'T DO IT WITH YOUR FINGER IN THERE! they will be noticably ragged if bad.

[This message has been edited by john walker's workshop (edited 04-14-2001).]

Thanks everyone!

I'll get this checked out on Monday. At least a new starter won't cost an arm and a leg.

I still have no clue how this could have happened by simply driving down the road, and I'd really like to understand what might have triggered this.

Anyone?

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Michael
'78 911SC Euro

The solenoid has to overcome a pretty strong spring in order to enage the starter's pinion gear with the ring gear on the flywheel (and most have "overrun" clutches to prevent them from being spun too fast by the engine)-it won't engage without 12 volts to the solenoid coil (the small spade terminal on the starter, not the large stud-that's for the battery cable), unless the solenoid ITSELF is bad, and shorted between these two contacts. You've either got a short in the harness between the switch and the solenoid, or a bad solenoid, and possibly a bad overrun clutch.

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Clay McGuill '66 912, '97 Jeep Cherokee www.geocities.com/the912guy

Is it possible that something was "disturbed" when the airbox was replaced?

I think I now understand the mechanics behind the issue, but it still boggles me that it would just happen spontaneously while driving.

I sure hope this ends with the solenoid being the issue, as a problem in the loom is going to be a bear to find.......

Thanks!

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Michael
'78 911SC Euro

you did say previously that the key would turn without any distinction between on and start. the electrical ignition switch's internal spring obviously failed when you were driving, and the switch managed to get into the start mode by being vibrated, or moved by a big collection of keys on the key ring, etc, etc. not uncommon. there is probably nothing wrong with your wire loom.

[This message has been edited by john walker's workshop (edited 04-15-2001).]

Mikr,

It sounds like your mechanic may have a wire crossed. After looking at the wiring diagram, the ignition switch when in the start position, should energize the starter selenoid, along with the cold start selenoid.

You may want to check the wire to the cold start selenoid to see if it is energized when the ignition switch is in the on position. If it is, than your wrench may have conected the wire which goes to both components to the wrong terminal on your starter switch.

Steve