Differences between Elephant Racing and Weltmeister strut brace?

[oregonmon]

Hi all,
Could you list pros and cons regarding the Elephant strut brace and Weltmeister strut brace?
Supposedly the mounting points determine the effectiveness of them but would like to see the feedback.
Thanks.

[dad911]

I do not like the way the Weltmeister mounts to strut, as others have also reported:Weltmeiter Strutbrace Fix / Modification

[ZOA NOM]

I'm removing my Weltmeister because it constricts the top of the strut, which limits the effectiveness of the front suspension. It can also break the top of the strut under load. The top of the strut is supposed to swivel, allowing the tire to maintain a good patch. The monoball is the most precise method of mounting the top of the strut that allows it to move.

[911pcars]

Here's the stock WM strut mount bracket. Some contend the mount restricts normal movement of the top of the strut:


The thread referred to by dad911 shows a WM strut bracket overly modified (see below). In the process of modifying the bracket, the owner made the opening too large and thus possibly making the bracket less rigid.


Then the owner decides to enlarge the opening even more, thinking the only access for the large washer is via through the WM bracket:


That wasn't necessary.

The opening need only be large enough to access the strut nut with a socket. Bracket strength isn't compromised by creating a "lightening hole". There's enough space under the WM bracket to remove the large washer after removing the strut. Notice a single bolt remains to hold the strut alignment even after removing two strut mount bolts for the WM bracket:


As far as I know, the ER strut bar mounts to one of the strut tower bolts with a rod end.

BTW, here's a WM mount I modified to include a triangulated brace. I replaced the WM components with aluminum tubes and rod ends and lightweight hardware.


Here's another thread on the subject:
Strut Tower Brace (STB) Connections

Sherwood

[rnln]

oregonmon,
Sorry, can I jump in to have a question for Sherwood? Thanks

Hi Sherwood,
I am thinking of making one myself. I have couple questions. Please tell me if it can be done or forget about it.
1- Do you think my Lincoln welder pack 100 (or 101, can't remember the model) without gas can handle this task? Regarding welding the bracket, and the nuts to the pipe.
2- How thick is the material I should use to make these brackets?
3- What kind of force we are dealing with here? A lot or moderate force?

Also, is there a different in performance between the 2 types of braket below? I know most people said the top one is better but to my unexperience eyes, they both bolt on to the tonwer by 2 bolts. Can you explain more into this?
Thanks Sherwood.

[oregonmon]

Does anyone have a pic of the Elephant bar mounting?

[spyderman]

I don't have a pic, but I just installed the elephant strut brace this weekend. Of the three allen head bolts, the elephant strut brace bolts to the inside rear bolt. No need to re-align the car, just unscrew the rear inside bolt on each side, and replace the bolt with the bolts supplied. Took maybe 10 mins, and doesn't tie into the strut. Hope that helps.

[cgarr]

You shouldn't mount anything solid to something that should move, like the strut.

[Britain Smith]

How about combining the function of the mono-ball strut top with the strut brace...best of both worlds. I am going to get the WEVO unit for my car.

-Britain

[RWebb]

I always wonder if it would be better to have any brace (or tie-bar if all force is in tension) attach to the top, or to have an entire rib running up and down the sheet metal next to the strut and attach to that...

Porsche did the latter for the RSR and IIRC some other race cars.

OTOH, Automotion said there were studies showing that the tops of the struts move apart during corner, so it might not make much or any difference.

For more on this see:
Strut Brace Info and Pics... please

[911pcars]

Originally Posted by rnln

oregonmon,
Sorry, can I jump in to have a question for Sherwood? Thanks

Hi Sherwood,
I am thinking of making one myself. I have couple questions. Please tell me if it can be done or forget about it.
1- Do you think my Lincoln welder pack 100 (or 101, can't remember the model) without gas can handle this task? Regarding welding the bracket, and the nuts to the pipe.
2- How thick is the material I should use to make these brackets?
3- What kind of force we are dealing with here? A lot or moderate force?

Also, is there a different in performance between the 2 types of braket below? I know most people said the top one is better but to my unexperience eyes, they both bolt on to the tonwer by 2 bolts. Can you explain more into this?
Thanks Sherwood.

Steve,
The welding requirements are pretty minimal. I used my gas welder to attach the appendage to adapt the second bar. The material was sourced from that high-end race shop, OSH. The material is basically CRS (cold-rolled steel), same as the WM bracket. For a second steel tube, weld a nut onto the end to provide threads for a rod end. However, steel tubes are heavy. The tubes shown in my photo are off-the-shelf aluminum tubes. The aluminum rod ends and jam nuts simply screw into the tube ends. All twin tube conversion pieces, including brackets, backing plates, add'l fasteners, etc. were only 4 oz. heavier than the single WM steel bar setup.



Not sure about the amount of force subjected to this bracket. That depends on the amount of relative or synchronized movement of the struts during cornering.

Also not sure which 2-bolt method is superior. I suspect they're equivalent. As for a bolted or a welded mount, I think the manufacturers thought about the number of owners who prefer using existing mounting locations rather than welding and/or drilling new holes.

The factory may have chosen a welded bracket on the strut tower wall because it's simple. It also allows faster access for repeated shock/strut adjustments a track car must provide. For all I know, the factory may also have reinforced the strut tower for this bracket. Any strut bar, single or double is also a factor in decreasing the storage volume in a non-track trunk.

Hope this helps,
Sherwood

[trentwat]

Has anyone tried the Rennline version (Truss or Monoball)?

[911pcars]

Originally Posted by trentwat

Has anyone tried the Rennline version (Truss or Monoball)?

I doubt that even Mark Donohue could tell the difference between like-for-like strut bars while driving.

Other than that, some strut bars are more "racy", easier/more difficult to install, lighter/heavier, more/less expensive and/or more/less adjustable than others.

Sherwood

[rnln]

thanks sherwood

[trentwat]

Originally Posted by 911pcars

I doubt that even Mark Donohue could tell the difference between like-for-like strut bars while driving.

Other than that, some strut bars are more "racy", easier/more difficult to install, lighter/heavier, more/less expensive and/or more/less adjustable than others.

Sherwood

...talk about an ambiguous response. So, they're all the same, except the differences you mention -which all seem important to me. But, each of the differences will have zero impact on my ability unless I am Jorg Bergmiester....

Why get one in the first place? Do they have an impact when going from none to one -regardless of the brand?

[Chris Lovell]

I have the Rennline monoball and three point strut. The are beautifully engineered products and install with no problems. No hesitation whatsoever in recommending RennLine. Source through Pelican if you go that way.

[911pcars]

Originally Posted by trentwat

...talk about an ambiguous response. So, they're all the same, except the differences you mention -which all seem important to me. But, each of the differences will have zero impact on my ability unless I am Jorg Bergmiester....

Why get one in the first place? Do they have an impact when going from none to one -regardless of the brand?

It's just a bar or two between the strut towers. I'm not aware of any comparison tests between the different bars. I wasn't implying you wouldn't feel the difference between none and one, but I doubt one could differentiate between brand A and brand B, even Jorg.

The bar of choice for most consumers has the desired combination of attractiveness, ease of installation and price, and for some, an appearance of period authenticity. The effectiveness of a strut bar must be assumed since most can only judge by manufacturer's claims and by personal, seat-of-the-pants dyno, both of which we are either variable and/or subjective. The same feature on a purpose-built track car also makes it attractive to civilians, despite its application in a non-racing environment. YMMV.

Sherwood

[RWebb]

IOW, no one knows for sure whether they work or not or at what level the effects first become significant.

The factory used them, and that must mean something.

The front end of a true 911 (NOT 964, 993) Is flexible so that means something.

There are hundreds of comments on this in dozens of threads but it is all summed up in this one.

You may want to buy the one that looks best as a towel rack.

I have a simple tie bar type. If I was buying one today, I'd get the Elph. triangle brace. The design concept makes sense, altho I have not seen a quantiative analysis nor any data.

Also, long objects can still fit on one side of the trunk.

[trentwat]

Thank you Sherwood...just playing a bit...When it comes to where one should spend moey and time, there's quite a bit to absorb.

BTW: what is YMMV?

[911pcars]

Originally Posted by trentwat

Thank you Sherwood...just playing a bit...When it comes to where one should spend moey and time, there's quite a bit to absorb.

BTW: what is YMMV?

Yes, I agree. Some have different priorities with cost being at the forefront or at the bottom of the list depending on such things like the lust or must-have factors.

YMMV is internet-speak for "your mileage may vary", i.e. "Your results/experience may be different than mine".

Best wishes with your shopping list.
Sherwood