The WORST RSR front flare welding job EVER.
 

I've decided to cross-post this in my personal car-build thread, as well as the main technical forum so perhaps someone can benefit from this debacle.

A few months ago I bought a set of already flared early front fenders for my RSR project. Upon initial test-install, I found that the flare job didn't match my front bumper. (See my Project 69'er thread for details).

Since I had to reshape the flare, I took a grinder to them a few weeks ago and discovered *inches* of bondo on the fender.

This week, I had them professionally sandblasted to remove the paint and any bondo.

They were 10 lbs lighter *each* when I got them back. That's not a joke, or an exaggeration. *10* lbs. each.

Upon first inspection, I was BLOWN AWAY by how poorly the flares were installed, and what terrible attention to detail whomever installed them was willing to put up with. These are beautiful cars that don't deserve this.

Warning...the following photos might upset some viewers. I'll let them speak for themselves before I narrate what I did today to rectify the situation:


http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1206844788.jpg
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1206844823.jpg
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1206844838.jpg
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1206844853.jpg
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1206844866.jpg
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1206844882.jpg
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1206844918.jpg
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1206844955.jpg

I hope you didnt pay to much..... Those are some pretty mean welds

Then what?
 

Well, I had two options: Cut the flare off, clean the welds and reshape the warped fender, fixing the rust along the way, or leave the flare on, trim the excess from the *inside*, and reshape.

I chose the former...why not do it right?

I had to be very careful to make the cut just inside the existing pigeon poop welds. I didn't want to remove too much good flare.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1206845167.jpg

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1206845231.jpg

Committed.


http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1206845267.jpg

The front lower part of the fender was the worst. This piece had to go:


http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1206845304.jpg

Off, on it's way to the trash can:


http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1206845353.jpg

The cut fender, before I cleaned up the welds. (It took over an hour of grinding to clean the welds off:


http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1206845426.jpg

Cleaned up:

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1206845453.jpg


http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1206845481.jpg

With the welds cleaned up, it was time to make a plan
 

I sliced and notched the lower portion of the stock fender so I could pull it out to mate with my RSR front bumper:


http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1206845604.jpg
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1206845632.jpg

I clamped it in place to do a quick test fit of the flare. Already it looks a million times better than the bondo-fenders I started with.


http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1206845696.jpg

My plan is to tack the bottom portion back where it was, but remove the top of the double layer of the lower-bottom front fender. I had to carefully remove the doubled part without cutting through the lower part:


http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1206845786.jpg

Once the top skin was off, the fit was really nice:


http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1206845823.jpg

Unfortunately, the bottom layer had some significant rust that I couldn't just grind off, so I decided to patch it, grind it, and POR 15 it for future rust prevention. I'm getting the hang of this welding thing yet...


http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1206845895.jpg
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1206845919.jpg
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1206845966.jpg

Welded, grinded, cleaned, POR-ed
 

Fitted:

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1206846031.jpg

Welded:

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1206846049.jpg

Ground Smooth:

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1206846068.jpg

POR'ed, and put up for the evening. I'll make more progress tomorrow morning, and hopefully get the flare fitted and tacked. I'll feel MUCH better knowing it's done right this time. I should note that, this is the first time I've ever done this, so excuse any obvious mistakes I'm making...


http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1206846194.jpg


http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1206846222.jpg
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1206846249.jpg

awesome... looks like you had to clean up a real mess...

That's nothing compared to what I'm beginning to find on my car :)

Rough cut, like inch of bondo for FG flares, oh.... and while we're at it.... lets hide that frame damage by welding the fender right onto the frame. :P

Keep up the great work

Wow. . . that was just. . . wow.

Congrats on taking the initiative to clean it up.

A 911 fender isn't the place to learn how to weld. Obviously someone didn't either (1) practice elsewhere first or (2) have the sense to take it to someone who knows how to weld.

I have no idea how to weld, but if I was putting flares on my car, I certainly wouldn't start there. I'd take it to someone.

Good going anyway and best of luck with the car. Hopefully not too many other weird surprises.

I just have to say that was some of the crappiest panel patch jobs that I have ever seen. With as much Bondo that you say that were on these, I would doubt that even a very strong magnet would have stuck to them. Keep up the good work. Good luck!! Tony.

I'm impressed that you are willing to do major surgery like that next to expensive Fikse wheels.

I've got a couple of old, bent Cookie Cutters that I use for shop rollers so that my Fikses can stay far away from me when I have tools in my hands.

Good thing your time is worth nothing to you. I'd have thrown those away except for the practice you're getting out of that mess. When you grind over someone else's grinding, you just get too thin of metal to work well with, not to mention all the work hardening of the metal that has occurred due to welding, hammering and grinding. Work with some virgin metal and see what I mean.

BTW, Porsche used 1mm metal, or our 18 ga., which is equivalent. You need this much thickness to do good welding. Mic those cuts.

Well Milt...I'm actually pretty pleased with how it's turning out so far. I know it was an undertaking, but I'm far less intimidated now than I was a year ago. I never would have tackled this then, but now I'm having some fun problem solving. More pics with today's progress later.

I didn't say you couldn't do it, just that you're fighting a tough battle. Metalwork is easy once you get the feel. You need nice soft metal of a uniform thickness to work and weld it with ease. And, use very little filler to finish up. Most of my welds take a skim coat of lead and that's it. Not bragging here, it's the way things are done. You don't go to Foose's shop and see a bunch of Bondo dust on the floor. Whoever did that mess to start with is a kludge of the first order.

It's like house painting, most hate it because they don't know how to do it right and how easy it is. It's some of the easiest work I've ever done.

Ok, today's update. I did a grind of the excess POR-15, and started aligning the fender off the car so I could get the flare mounted. I then tack-welded the lower portion of the flare:


http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1206941710.jpg
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1206941732.jpg

I then went to mount the fender on the car, but discovered the crappy headlight bucket patch" was in the way, and had to go:


http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1206941786.jpg


http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1206941866.jpg

I'll deal with that later, using the other, good headlight bucket as a template.

Ok guys, I need some help here. I am now faced with aligning these front flares, and it would appear, if I'm using other cars (including real RSRs) for a reference, that my bumpers are a bit too wide. In the RSR pics, it looks like the front of the flare slopes inward to meet the bumper. If I fit mine the way they are, they would be about vertical. I'm also concerned about the wheel opening...should I make it even all the way around? Take a look at these pictures, and let me know what you think.

Thanks.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1206907099.jpg


http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1206907171.jpg
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1206907204.jpg
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1206907226.jpg
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1206907251.jpg
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1206907270.jpg
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1206907285.jpg
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1206907307.jpg
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1206907324.jpg


I'm thinking I might trim the front bumper to be a bit narrower, and fit the flares to that. thoughts?

are you putting the same flair on you took off?, Kevin

While this patch is only on an inner panel and never seen, it is an opportunity to practise and do a better job:

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1206846031.jpg

Cut your hole so the edges are straighter. Use a smaller diameter, thinner cutoff wheel to make these cuts. It looks like you used your big angle grinder by the way the sides have little notches in them.

Cut the patch so it fits TIGHT to the hole. Those big gaps are no good. Filling them with weld is what the previous hack did.

Experiment with copper bars clamped to the other side. The copper will hold the patch flush to the original metal, and provides a fantastic heat sink to pull away excess heat. This prevents warpage. I also use old copper pennies (ground flat) as clamping pads for the vise grips. You can weld right up to the copper, it will not stick.

I think that you are doing a great job so far, and you have learned and will learn a lot more about metalwork. Good luck!! Tony.

Agreed...that's why I am making a call to arms here. I think the bumper is too wide, so my plan is to do some custom fiberglass work, and trim a bit off of the existing bumper. That said, I haven't welded the flare on yet...it's just screwed in on the front of the fender at the moment. I'm looking for measurements this week.

I think I see the problem, but rather than going through all that, let me say I rather like the proportions of the flare to the fender. The RSR would project more and be more vertical at the lip. I think at this point I'd cut on the bumper. Another craft to learn, FRP.

I use a variety of these profile gauges while fitting up to ensure one side is like the other.

http://www.hartvilletool.com/shared/...ium/64252.JPEG

http://www.eastwoodco.com/images/us/...ail/p27394.jpg

Looks like the guy used flux core wire on those bad welds. I think that's the wire that comes with something on it so you don't have to use gas. When I was first teaching my self to weld I used the flux core and my welds looked like that. What a hack!

Well you got balls, i'll say that much.

I was kinda wondering how much metal was left with all that grinding.

Ditto on the comment about your 'patch' and the large open space. Even the ends that look 'close' are pushing it. I noticed that you didn't appear to finish the welds on the patch. I THINK this is a potential rust problem in the future (not to mention scruffy looking).

I don't think i could do any better than you but these things should be pointed out since you are doing the Lord's work (aka wrenching on 911's).

Not to hijack but i'm interested in the consensus on what the best grinding agent is to avoid too much heat yet allow for reasonably quick weld cleanup. 4 1/2" flap wheels are just damn dangerous in the areas that Michael is working in.

And here i thought it musta been a big arse stick welder;)

Whatever it was that person should be ashamed of taking $$ for that 'work' (assuming he did).

I didn't actually use that patch you saw in the picture. The one I used was much tighter, and I did clean the welds before applying POR-15.

I was also really careful to JUST grind the welds...as I got closer and closer to the actual fender, I went to a finer grinder, and was careful to keep the fender from overheating with a quenched rag.

On the head light repair you can see the wire from a MIG welder sticking thru. the kludge didn't even bother to snip those off, much less dress the welds. I can't tell whether the wires have the flux core (not a coating, BTW) or are solid. My guess is solid. You can be just as bad with MIG as with flux core wire feed. This guy was a real point and shoot artist.

All MIG welds should be relatively flat, not worms and not lumps. And certainly not a dog pile like emtyo found under his bondo sculpture.

Can you elaborate on this? Is it grind/pat/grind/pat/grind/pat or are you holding the rag on the other side of the metal or what?

When fitting patches for butt welding (with MIG), I've always used a small gap approximately the thickness of the wire (.023"). I've got a slight problem getting good penetration with my little buzz box Lincoln 125 Plus when I butt straight up with no gap. More powerful welders may not have the same issue.

When I use my TIG (wherever possible), I use no gap at all (as per Ron Covell - the master).

If possible I'd try and do all of the welding of the flare with the fender bolted solid on the car. These fenders are not too stiff torsionally along their length and could easily be tweaked during welding on the bench.

Keep up the good work.

Tim K

You need a heat sink to keep the heat from spreading. A damp rag held on either side of the weld will do some, moving and turning the rag will do more. A blast of compressed air just as you finish the weld is a good way to minimize warping. Putting the rag right on the weld actually shrinks the metal, but I don't like this method so much. I like to hammer and dolly the weld a bit while it's still very hot. This is tougher on a MIG weld than a gas or TIG weld as the MIG is very hard to start with

Lastly, Eastwood sells a putty that acts as a heat sink. You put a strip on either side of the weld.

Having a opening at the root of the weld sometimes helps penetration. If it works, do it. :)

Generally, when I use these--

http://www.eastwoodco.com/images/us/...etail/p354.jpg

I open the gap only where they have to be and do the rest of the fit up as tight as possible. Then, when those come out, I fill weld those gaps. Tight fit up means less heat. So, IOW I don't do like in the pic.

You said you had two options,. I say you had three.........

Buy fiberglass fenders and qtrs that are already flaired!!! Would have saved you countless hours of work,..

BUT, that being said,. outstanding job so far!

Thanks, and agreed. I welded just the (stiffer) bottom portion on the bench, since it was easier to do it there. Then I fitted and bolted up the fender for the rest of the install.

As far as the rag goes, I kept a soaked rag near me, and was careful to move from spot to spot and leave a lot of space between the tacks. I kept my left hand gloveless so I could tell how hot the fender got. If it got too hot, I would quench the weld area with water until it cooled.

Great advice from Milt, et al. I definitely feel more comfortable behind a welder's mask now, but I know I have a long way to go. If I can salvage these fenders (and this passenger side is WAY worse than the driver's side) it will be a score.

Nope....not an option. My SCCA class strictly prohibits full fiberglass fender replacements. I wish!

What we need is someone on this board that has access to metal stamping tools, so we can actually create an early fitment RSR front flare and sell it. Who's in? :)

Just what I was going to say.

Sticking-through-mig-wire comes from trying to weld metal that is virtually non-existent (or non-existent when people try to fill huge holes w/a weld rather than a patch:rolleyes:). You burn right through and continue feeding wire until you get enough current flowing to melt the wire. Not pretty.

emptyo, that was visible when you bought the fenders, wasn't it? And the underside of the flare weld?

Check over on EarlyS. Somebody there was working on ST flares.

Might shoot an email to our buddy at Restoration Design.

@stevemfr,

No, nothing was visible...it was covered with thick undercoating underneath. They seriously were 10 lbs lighter when I got them back from the blaster.

I'm not trying to be hyper critical here, really, but that must have been some undercoating job to hide this:

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1206941786.jpg

The idiot musta used roof mastic. :D

Anyway, Michael, you're doing one hell of a lot of work and you'll be nearly an expert if you pull it off, which it looks like you may. Keep that nozzle as low to the work as you can get it and still see (about 1/4 inch). Use 20 degree angle and "push" your welds for the easiest approach. You can make a little cooler weld with a little more angle, but observe the backside for even penetration. Examine your welds in the dark with a light from behind to locate pinholes which will come back to haunt you if you don't get them ALL.

Oh, it was indeed. Remember though, that I got a close up look at these for the first time when they were delivered to me. I relied a bit on the PO (who didn't do the work on these) to give me a good assessment. If for some reason I don't pull this off, I'll buy some new turbo flares and start over...I'll have at least an inch of fresh metal to work with. But...lets not talk about that just yet. :)


Back to the topic at hand...should I weld the flares where they are, and focus on trimming the bumper to fit, or reshape the flare area? They *look* pretty good in reference to other pics and in relation to the rear flares. That middle filler panel is a little scary to me though....

As I said, I like the overall shape you're coming up with. And, as I understand the situation, the ST flares, and therefore possibly the RSR flares, did vary from car to car depending on who did the work, a race shop or the factory. There is even some evidence that the factory did not always make the same product. So, you have a little creative latitude here.

I do both metalwork and FRP work. I started in FRP back in the late '60's, so I'm pretty experienced there as opposed to being somewhat of a newbie at the metalwork (even though I've been "bumping" metal for almost the same amount of time; I have not fabricated nearly as much). I would get the fenders the same from side to side and in a shape that comes to the bumper as best as possible. At that point, I'd bring the bumpers to the fenders. Hardly anyone who has purchased some of this aftermarket fiberglass (FRP) stuff has not had to do some significant fitting. Sometimes you have to cut the things, remove a wedge and fiberglass repair your cut. This is a lot easier for me than cutting and patching metal. For some hero like Ron Covel, well he would just do the metal even if he had to make large portions of the fender from scratch.

To me, there's a difference between taking the path of least resistance vs. building an all metal handcrafted show piece where your reputation is always being scrutinized. That's the benefit we have being home based car modders, we aren't heroes and can switch from one medium to the next to get the job done and the car on the road or track. For instance, I wouldn't hesitate one minute before installing FRP headlight buckets in those fenders.