Quest for Cool, Part III

Sorry to borrow Jack's opener, but I think my announcement related to this topic was buried in one of his last threads. My apologies for the redundancy.

I'm introducing a product I put together whose purpose is to provide localized cooling. It's called MPC (multi-purpose-cooling). Not high tech, but uses a proven principle (Latent heat of evaporation). It uses a high pressure pump to force water (!) through special misting nozzles which creates very small droplets. The resultant mist quickly evaporates to absorb heat from the surrounding air. On a hot day, the heat reduction should be at least 15-20 degrees cooler. Many uses, especially for track cars.



More info at http://www.seinesystems.com

I'll be in Cambria this weekend with a portable demo unit in case anyone is interested in a looksee.

Regards,
Sherwood Lee
http://members.rennlist.org/911pcars/rgruppeintro.htm

You're thinking we should spray water on our brakes so that we can stop faster?

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Bill Krause
'79 911SC Euro

I saw a truck race in Europe once where they used water cooled brakes the help the big rigs slow down for the corners. Steam came pouring off the wheels whenever the driver hit the binders. I hear that this method is effective, and it looked really cool (excuse the pun).

I think some tracks will not allow a device that deposits liquid onto the track surface no matter how small the quantity. Have you investigated this?

orbmedia inquires: "I think some tracks will not allow a device that deposits liquid onto the track surface no matter how small the quantity. Have you investigated this?"

Yes I have. Examples:

SCCA Pro Racing excerpt:
"23.6.7: Water spray cooling systems are permitted. Maximum tank capacity 3 gal. No liquid cooled calipers."

SCCA Speedvision World Challenge Championship excerpt:
"15.1.11: Water spray cooling systems are permitted. Water-cooled calipers are forbidden." (My interpretation: Water mist to cool air does not constitute water-cooled calipers).

PCA rules allow "free brakes" in their Super car classification.

POC GCR's"
"26.1.2.3
Any oil, water, or air cooling change that allows the engine to run cooler is permitted, unless otherwise prohibited. ..... ", and "Any modification with regard to safety improvement will generally be accepted if approved by the Competition Director or his designee. " (CD interpretation)

Sherwood Lee

Is it intended for use on the oil coolers?

I can sort of see that working - like a water sprayer for the intercooler on Subaru WRX Sti models.

Cam

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Cameron Baudinet
1975 911S

I am guessing that would work well with the atomizer thingy just aft of the fan. Should really cool the air blowing across the engine and through the engine oil cooler.

This is assuming of course the water doesn't wreak havoc in your alternator.

Tom

How much water would that consume? Seems like it would take a ***** load to provide significant cooling.

A boxer engine turning 6000 rpm is producing some pretty serious heat energy.

I haven't done any calculations but I wouldn't be surprised if you needed something in the range of 1/2 Gallon per minute to have a real impact. Now your talking about a pretty serious weight penalty trucking all that h20 around.

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'86 Cab, '77 Targa, Family Truckster

A fine water mist running through the alternator is much less than what goes through there when it's raining and the alternator does just fine. Also, there is quite a bit of moisture in the air that normally goes through the blower. The trick is when the water droplets are big; can't get them through the fan. Doesn't quite work as most of the water centrifuges to the fan housing due to the fan blades and stays there. Water mist in this case works best if it's has already or just about vaporized or introduced into the engine after the fan. A better application is for localized cooling at an oil radiator, intercooler or brake duct. Works best in dry, hot ambient environments as evap. is faster, especially with air circulating.

The MPC system provides spot cooling assistance. It's not a cooling system, so it's not designed to replace it. Water consumption is approx. 1 gallon/1.5 hrs per nozzle.

When we were at Laguna Seca last year for the World Superbike races, they were selling these devices (with a pint-sized water bottle and carrying holster), for "personal cooling".
My wife is easily affected by hot temperatures, so she bought one ($29.95).
Very effective on a hot day sitting in the grandstands. We ended up buying another before they sold out. I heard they are also available at Target or K-mart stores.


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Doug
'81 SC Coupe (aka: "Blue Bomber")
Canada West Region PCA
members.home.net/zielke/911SC.htm

911pcars,

How much cooling capacity (ability to absorb heat energy) is created at 1 Gal / 1.5 hours?

And how much heat energy is dissipated by a typical oil cooler / brake rotor / engine under race conditions in 1.5 hours?

Without doing the math, I would venture a guess that we have a huge mismatch. Kinda like putting out a forest fire with a squirt gun. I could be wrong, show the math.

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'86 Cab, '77 Targa, Family Truckster

I tried something like this by running a small hose from the windshield washer pump to a mister nozzle mounted in the opening of my oil cooler scoop{see scoop at pelican} . It worked, I measured cooler oil temps , by a much as 5 degrees, but extended use of the pump under pressure soon reduced the pump to a smoking mass of plastic and also the brakes on the right front were effected by the moisture. A system like this with the proper pump and atomizers could work for just plain street cars. After all, we are not expecting to find big reductions in oil temps , just a little here and there.
jerry-78-911SC

I didn't see a price on the website?

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Zach
77 911S 3.2

Can you use the spray on an intercooler, like the WRX?

Subaru have been supplying a watersprayer as standard on the STi (Subaru Technica International, I think) model WRX's since the previous generation (ie about 5-6 years).

STi is to Subaru what "M" is to BMW. You get lots of extra race-bred bits and another 60hp (to Japanese maximum of 280hp - although they have been known to fib a little - the STI WRX engine has had 280 hp since 1993 despite being revised and having more boost now).

The page below lists some details on the WRX STI, including mention of the water sprayer.

http://www.specialstage.com/general/japan.shtml

So yes, it would work.

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Cameron Baudinet
1975 911S

Jerry Madderra wrote:
<>

My early testing backs up your findings, except I used a simple plant misting bottle aimed at a trombone cooler. On a hot day with the engine just idling, the oil temp. gauge dropped 5 degrees - this from a cooler with not a lot of surface area. You're correct though in that you don't want a lot of liquid in this area, just a fine mist. The MPC nozzle creates 55 micron-size droplets, and add'l air flow (from a fan or vehicle speed) increases evaporation and heat absorption. The MPC pump is a heavy duty industrial unit (can also run dry without damage). The system also uses a pressure accumulator to reduce pump cycling and increase pump life. 1 year limited warranty too.

Sherwood Lee
http://www.seinesystems.com

The hippies at the Oregon Country Fair (looking forward to that in July) use these misters for personal cooling and crowd cooling, very effectively. Yes, Superman hangs with hippies at times.

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'83 SC

911pcars,

I will ask again for some math that demonstrates that 1 Gal in 1.5 hours can produce cooling capacity that is anywhere near the heat dissipated by an oil cooler in 1.5 hours of competition use. I say thay are lightyears apart.

This is your business so surely you have done these calculations. They aren't that tough. This is simple engineering.

Frankly, your product smells like snake oil. I looked at your web site and I see you using the terms "temperature" and "heat" interchangeably, as if they were the same thing (they are not). You talk about lowering air termperature 15-20 degrees but you don't tell us about the volume of air. This demonstrates a lack of understanding of the issues at hand.

Sorry to rain on your parade but I don't want to see members wasting money on snake oil.

Post the supporting math on this thread and prove to everyone that Clark Griswald is wrong.

If you can do that I'll be the first to buy.



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'86 Cab, '77 Targa, Family Truckster

Let's see, you want me to calculate for you the volume of air entering the rear deck grill of a car at variable vehicle and engine speeds and calculate the water delivery rate AND evaporation rate at different ambient and engine temperatures? Sorry, I guess I'm not smart enough.

Why not just measure the air temperature aft of the intercooler with and without the water mist? 15ºF. difference. Ambient air temp. was a cool 60ºF.

Clark, you're correct, the amount of heat dissipated by this system is nowhere near what an oil cooler would dissipate. But that isn't the point. MPC is not a cooling system; it's additional cooling to what is already there. Sort of like introducing more air to a fender- mount oil cooler. Why do you dismiss real world temperature measurements?

I appreciate your skepticism. However, we may be looking at different cooling objectives.

Regards,
Sherwood

Again you are talking about temperature. You should be talking about heat.

You are selling a product "designed" to cool race car components and you don't even know the cooling capacity of your product. You don't know how to do the math. What is wrong with this picture?

Let me get you pointed in the right direction - you need to find out how much energy is absorbed when water evaporates. You can probably look this up in any thermodynamics text book. It will be given for a unit volume of water. Now all you need to do is figure out how many units your system is evaporating in a given period of time, then multiply it out. Voila. Now you know the cooling capacity of your system.

Now find out how much heat is dissipated by your intended application (oil cooler, brake, intercooler). If your cooling capacity isn't in the same ballpark, you need to re-think that application.


Your product has SOME cooling effect, no argument there. It's a question of if this cooling effect is SIGNIFICANT to the intended application.

Spraying a mist off a hippie's hat is a fine application, the wearer will feel a cooling effect. Spraying a mist at 1 gallon per 1.5 hours into a racing oil cooler or brake system is an entirely different proposition. These application produce enourmous heat.



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'86 Cab, '77 Targa, Family Truckster