'88 prob: starter grinds; then cranks but no spark; 1 min later starts fine. Ideas??

[Bob Prosser]

Here's a question for you ignition gurus.

As a project this summer, I'm going through my (once new, now a classic) '88 3.2 daily driver, doing some repair/replace work.



Among things, I'm going to replace the starter. See, recently I'd occasionally get a grinding noise on the first tap of the key. (I hope it's a tired Bendix, and not a bad ring gear.) On the subsequent tries to start, the starter would turn the engine over fine, but it wouldn't start up -- it'd just crank over and over. Then, after waiting a minute or two, it'd start instantly.

Here's the sequence the last time it last happened:

1.] Key in; turn to accessory pos 1; turn past pos 2 to start; "CRRUNCH!"

2.] Key back to accessory pos 1; turn back to pos 2 to start; "nah, nah, nah, nah, nah, nah, nah, nah, nah, nah, nah ..." (no start)

3.] Key taken out again. Wait a minute or so.

4.] Key back in; turn to start; (starts instantly, idles perfectly).

Odd ... it's as though something in the ignition gets overloaded by a power surge when the starter crashes with the ring gear "crunch!" and then has to cool and/or reset. This has me wondering if it's a problem, or just a function of the ignition system.

Note: this car has never failed to start until this; the battery has 12.8 vdc at rest; the ground strap is clean and tight; the ignition switch has never had any weight on it other than the single key and seems in fine shape; the engine is in a good state of tune with fairly new plugs and wires.

Anyone have a clue? I'll let you know how it goes.

[78targa]

I'm sure someone can offer better information here, but I just wanted to throw out another possibility for you to consider. Part of the issue could be a lack of fuel.

You need 2 things to fire the engine...well 3 if you include the need for the starter to operate correctly...fuel and a spark.

I'm not sure if I entirely followed your sequence for how the car finally starts, but youcould have a bad fuel check valve. I'm more of a race engine and former SC guy. I know I had a problem with a check valve and a fuel accumulator once. Basically the fuel is able to flow back to the tank and the delayed start is caused by the fuel having to be pumped back to the engine.

I don't know if you could have a similar problem, I know the 3.2 is different, but I haven't really looked into it. Maybe this helps you from overlooking something.

It does sound like you have a starter issue too if you are getting grinding when it first cranks. as for lack of spark, with a delayed spark I would lean to more of some type of fuel issue. You would think that an electrical issue (lack of cranking amps) woudld get worse as you tried to start it.

Just me two cents. well, maybe 1 1/2 cents.

[Ned, NYNA11]

Bob,

The grinding noise may be the design problem that I had on my 87.

In summary, the G50 transmision flange placed the pinion too far from the ring gear. This causes the grinding and the fix is to install the correct ring gear.

[Ned, NYNA11]

Bob,

I think there is an inspection port at the bottom where you can see the ring gear. Pull the plugs and get the 22mm on the crank nut, turn the engine and check the ring gear.

Once I found the plug that carries the starter solenoid wire through the firewall to be loose. Stick your head in there and have a look.

[Ned, NYNA11]

Bob,
That plug is between the ignition switch and the firewall like towards the left headlight.

[Bob Prosser]

Thanks. I'll check all that.

Thing is though, this is not a sporadic problem where the car runs sometimes or not.

For twenty years the car has started instantly and ran solid -- up to now that is. And now I only have this problem after the car's starter goes "crunch." Then it won't start for ~ 1 minute. Then, it's back to normal, like nothing happened.

Pretty weird eh!?

[Bob Prosser]

Follow up: I replaced the starter with a Bosch rebuilt unit. That's a lot of work on the late models with the G-50 gearbox. Some suggest to do a partial engine drop because you cannot reach over the transaxle from the other side to get to the top 10mm allen nut -- the clutch master cylinder is in the way. I did it without the partial engine drop.

FYI: I tried all sorts of tool combination to get that top bolt loose and also tight again. To get the top bolt loose, I ended up using a sawed-off piece of 10mm allen wrench set in the end of a 10mm box wrench (taped together so it won't come apart). To break the allen nut loose I ran a nylon strap over the top of the wrench, then in a straight line down and out past where rear wheel would normally be. Keeping the line tight, I tied it to the end of a large mallet and snatched it hard. That broke it loose.

To tighten it back up, I used the same sawed-off 10mm allen wrench, now placed in a tight 1/4 drive and socket. Tight means no slop in the ratchet. You need to make every click count. You can use a rod to push on the end of the drive to tighten the last bit.

Note: while I was down there, I checked the entire ring gear. I found only one area with wear worth mentioning:



I'm relieved to see it isn't too bad. That area is shiny-new, so it must be the result of what I heard last time when it went "CRUNCH!" From what I read, when the flat-six is turned off, the ring gear stops in one of only three places. This must be one of them.

Also, I can save you a little head scratching with the wiring. The new starter had one extra spade terminal for a small wire. I reinstalled the wires on the new starter exactly the same way they came off the old one, but the starter was dead when I turned the key. Turns out, I had to move the small yellow wire from the bottom spade terminal on the solenoid to the one on the top side. End result: one tap of the key, it spun fast, and started instantly!

I'll re-post here if I find any other related symptoms in the days ahead.

[gsxrken]

Bob I will warn you that the same thing happened to me, even a little worse. I would get the occasional grind, and one day I was completely stuck. I got towed home, dropped the engine, changed the ring gear, installed a new high torque starter from our host and the car started on first twist of key.

You should have heard me when about a week later it grinded again.