287,000 miles. Is it time for a rebuild?

[xmach]

I have a 1985 911 Targa which has been well maintained, but always used as a daily driver, so it has high-mileage. The leaks in it are minimal, the oil has been changed neurotically. The leakdown isn't too bad for a nearly 290k car, but it's certainly not new and, at $80 per fill up, the gas mileage isn't amazing. I am the second owner and I live in Phoenix.

My wrench suggested to leave the engine alone until it starts to leak like a sieve. Dunno if I agree..?

I have been thinking about a rebuild. What's the best way to do it? Is there anyone local who rebuilds Porsche engines or do I have to drive it to Los Angeles?

[JeremyD]

You may or may not be due for a rebuild.

They typically will not "leak like a seive" what they typically will do is start using alot of oil. Anything over a qt of oil per 600 miles is considered excessive.

So - you may not really need an engine rebuild - but you may want a rebuild - and that's a whole nother set of issues.

[richde]

One of the many rules of picking a good mechanic:

When a guy that makes money by doing work for you suggests that you not pay him, listen. He's looking out for you as much as for himself.

[Zeke]

What happens is that you come closer to a failure as the miles pile up. You might say many rebuilds are preventive maintenance. But, going on 12K for a fully rebuilt motor these days, that's a lot of fixin'.

Your cat may not last as long with worn valve guides, but they cost about 400. So you put one in every 4 years, big deal. That's just an example. Mine has 236xxx and runs OK, but idles a bit rough when warm. No tune up is gonna fix what appears to be low compression on at least 2 cyls. I need a top end job, you might too.

[tcar]

My mechanic said that when it needs a rebuild, to find a good used engine and install it.

about a third the cost, and still (depending) ought to last for many years.

[ChkbookMechanic]

If the car still runs well and doesn't have any issues I wouldn't do a rebuild unless you have money burning a hole in your pocket.

[Barrpete]

Originally Posted by xmach

I have a 1985 911 Targa which has been well maintained, but always used as a daily driver, so it has high-mileage. The leaks in it are minimal, the oil has been changed neurotically. The leakdown isn't too bad for a nearly 290k car, but it's certainly not new and, at $80 per fill up, the gas mileage isn't amazing. I am the second owner and I live in Phoenix.

My wrench suggested to leave the engine alone until it starts to leak like a sieve. Dunno if I agree..?

I have been thinking about a rebuild. What's the best way to do it? Is there anyone local who rebuilds Porsche engines or do I have to drive it to Los Angeles?

As far as getting the work done in Phoenix, there's folks on this forum who give high marks to Patrick Motorsports. And the PO of my car had a top end rebuild done at Beck's in Scottsdale.

[ted]

No one wants to get stuck with a $12k rebuild.
Can you sell your motor as a core for a couple of grand more buy a good used lower milage 3.2 motor?
Or replaced it with a 3.6 if you plan to spend over $12k on rebuilding your 3.2.

[Britwrench]

You already have a used motor, so why install another one?

If the leakdown and compression figures are ok, the leaks (if any) are acceptable, nothing is broken or noticably worn (pitted cams, broken head,studs etc) leaving it till later would be realistic.

Don't forget the moment you start, whatever is broken needs fixing...........

[Zeke]

Originally Posted by Britwrench

Don't forget the moment you start, whatever is broken needs fixing...........

That's right. for example, you shouldn't just replace cam chains on an high miler. You need to do the gears as well. It go on and on and gets rather pricey.

[Peter Zimmermann]

Interesting thoughts on this thread. Mine will differ a bit because when an engine is "rebuilt" its owner should theoretically know exactly what he's got, and how long he can expect it to last. How much one is willing to pay for that will vary greatly from one owner to the next. My shop had an almost identical situation (after I sold the shop to Marc) to what xmach is facing. We had maintained an '86 Carrera Targa since it was new, for one owner, and at approximately 260K miles he said that he had stretched it far enough and requested a rebuild. As it turned out, the engine needed cams, rockers and an intermediate shaft, along with new pistons/cylinders. The repair ended up being just under $15K, which the owner was prepared for. While the engine was being done he had the car painted by L.A.'s finest, Brace's Auto Body in Culver City. He had the top rebuilt by Pete's Auto Top in L.A., and after the car was back together and returned for its 1K mile valve adjustment and oil change the owner told us that he didn't regret one penny of the expense, approximately $23K. He has already put 25K miles on the car (frequent trips to Palm Springs + daily driver) and still loves his car. He relishes the bullet-proof reliability, and the favorite bedroom slipper feel, of the car. To him the decision to rebuild was never in doubt. Others might not feel as he does.

[FenderGuy]

I was there a year ago....rebuild my engine or put in a replacement? I choose replacement as it was a little bit cheaper but wished now that i would have have kept my orginal engine instead of selling it....at your mileage I doubt it matters....

The only place I would send the engine to get rebuilt would be patricks but expect to pay $$$$$$$$ .....and for servicing the car? Hmmm dont know anymore, as I myself am looking for a new wrench to go to

[The Curator]

I had one rebuild done and I do not recommend it. Chances of it not being done right are just too great. There is nothing as maddening as spending the money and ending up with more problems than before the rebuild.

[BReyes]

What are the motors leakdown/compression numbers?

Have you been its driver or did you just buy it? Have you much prior experience with the make/your tech? Why don't you agree?

When you say, "regular maintenance", does that mean it has had a top end rebuild? Guys, wouldn't that be right? How many miles ago? Many of us will agee unless you have specific reasons why, you shouldn't rebuild.

Just thinking about failure makes one think ok its time, but are the chain lengths well within spec? Are the chain ramps nice? Any smoke at WOT?

Isn't the consensous that "neurotic" oil changes do wonders?

Regards,

[Peter Zimmermann]

I should mention that the car in post #11 had never been opened up (no top end work, etc.), and it still ran strong but its consumption had increased to a quart/500 miles, and its valve train had become noisy due to stretched chains, pitted cam lobes and worn rockers.

[craigyirush]

Do you know what the oil consumption is?

Does it smoke under acceleration or deceleration?

As for fuel economy, how much does a worn out engine (low compression) affect this? Maybe Pete Z. could chime in here?

[Peter Zimmermann]

Originally Posted by craigyirush

As for fuel economy, how much does a worn out engine (low compression) affect this? Maybe Pete Z. could chime in here?

Believe it or not, the engine that I mentioned above still had good leak down numbers, and we were astounded to find that the cylinders measured just at the edge of allowable wear. The owner didn't report any drop off in performance or economy of operation - but he did get tired of tracking the oil level! We did a number of high mileage engines of all displacements, but I really don't recall anyone complaining that the car's fuel economy had dropped to where it was an irritant. Maybe in today's economy that subject has become a talking point, but back in the '80s and '90s I really didn't see it.

I think that the main point that I tried to make (and might have missed the mark!) is that, yes, even a carefully driven, well-maintained car is going to have internal wear that might lead to a failure while driving, and you want to avoid that at all costs. Collateral damage is never cheap!

[JeremyD]

Boy I sure don't understand the reasoning of replacing a used engine with an unknown used engine. I sleep at night better knowing mine was rebuilt, what was replaced and how it was put together.

Isn't it BA book that mentions that he hasn't had a 3.2 or later engine that didn't exhibit some level of valve guide wear - I personally haven't seen a porsche engine opened up - no matter what the mileage that didn't have layshaft bearing wear.

You guys must sleep better than I do at night - and as milt said - it's not the digging in that kills you it's the while I'm in there... on the carrera - new fuel lines - new reference sensors and CHT sensors - get the fuel injectors serviced - how old are the plug wires? Powdercoating? How about the clutch? May as well do monoballs with the transmission out. Well, you get the idea.

[Bobboloo]

I think the best advice is the point Jeremy made about oil consumption. If the car exceeds more than a quart of oil in 600 miles then it's time to rebuild or at the very least do the top end.

If you end up doing the top end you can take the opportunity to examine the chains, cams and rocker arms. You can also examine piston and cylinder wear as well as pulling off a rod and examining the rod bearing. This can will help you decide if you want to go into the bottom end. Take the opportunity to replace the replace the front and rear crank seals as well.

I too love knowing exactly what condition my motor is in, and fall victim to "while your in there" syndrome, but sometimes you have to stand back and say to yourself, "If it ain't broke don't fix it." You could rebuild the motor only to find a month later a tree falls on the car and totals it. You can be sure that the insurance company is not going to offer you anymore money for the car because it has a rebuilt motor.

[boxster03]

i am sorry but I dd not see a single issue that leads me to believe you need to rebuild. answer the oil consumption, compression and leak down numbers then lets talk.