New owner, with a few misc questions

Hello all! I took the plunge and picked up a 1977 911S.

First, I'd like to thank the pelican parts members for all the information that's been posted on the board, about buying porsches in general, 911 in particular, and especially about the 2.7L engine.

I loved porsches as a kid, and my first car was a 914. Unfortunately, I didn't do a PPI, and let my shade tree dad inspect the car, and it was a rust bucket. I got to drive it about three weeks before the rear suspension separated from its rusted through mount. I couldn't even find anyone to work on it, and sold it for parts at a huge loss. Broke my heart.

cut ahead nearly 20 years, and I can finally afford a new fun car. Porsche was big on the list, and I considered 928, 944, 968, another 914, and 911. I also considered the second gen Mr2, celicas and supras, the 240Z and early 90s 300ZX. I have to say that the MR2 was a close runner up to the 911, but at the time it was because the MR2 was easy to drive, since I've been in a corolla for 14 years.

I found a 911 though the PNWR website, well cared for by a PCA/PNWR member. 165K miles, 35K on a rebuild. The called for upgrades were done at that time, including tensioners, but it's unknown if the thread inserts are timecert or casesaver. Lots of work when the last owner got it at 10K ago.

Once I got used to a cable clutch again, and felt comfortable enough to push the car a little, the 911 really distanced itself from the MR2. I freakin' love the car, and named it "Judge Fudge", after a character on Drawn Together, who is always too busy "lookin' delicious". the only thing I don't like about the car is the shifter. it's not as bad as my old squareback, but not as smooth as the corolla. My first upgrade will be a WEVO kit.

The questions:

1) If the car sits for a couple of days, and I pop the engine lid, there's a strong fuel smell. I'd expect that out of an engine with carbs, but this has the bosch injection on it. The smell isn't there if it's been driven, just after sitting, and it's not dripping gas onto the ground. Is this normal, or a sign of something?

2) I'm getting some stalling. It's always when I let off the gas in low gear and engage the clutch, like coming up to a stoplight. like the car doesn't drop back into idle very well. Smooth clutch transitions help, and many drives, even around town, don't have that happen, but if I have to come off a stoplight on a steep hill, the engine doesn't like it, and it'll stall like that pretty much until it runs for a long time at highway speed or is parked for several hours. oil temp doesn't seem to matter, and if the engine sputters a little on that one hill, smoothness of clutch doesn't matter, and if I restart it, even on level ground, it won't idle without a little gas. Any thoughts on what I'm doing wrong, of if it's another adjustment.

3) I'm in seattle, and am narrowing down my choice of mechanic to Gerber or John Walker. Any thoughts one way or the other? They're both fairly close to my house. I've just used the car to drive into work a couple of days a week. And a fun run or two around the way. I'm looking to take her out for DE and Autocross through PNWR, so what I would be asking of the mechanic is maintainence, including oil changes (I am all thumbs, and won't let myself do anything other than add a little oil between changes and check tire pressure) and to put together a prioritized list of improvements for tracking the car. The goal is to have a safe car with a better shift for June novice DE.

Again, thanks for the expertise everyone gives out on the site. I'll try to put a picture on the end of this. Judge Fudge!

[Rex Walter]

Machismo,

Nice looking mid year. I'm glad to see another nice one locally. It has a unique color and wheel combination. Are your rocker covers chromed?

Stalling after decelerating can be an indication of running rich, or it could be a vaccum leak.

If you have reduced your repair shops to Gerber or John Walkers, you are already ahead of the game by picking two of the best. I've had good luck at both places.

Hope to see you at some of the local events - check out the Northwest section of the Pelican site.

Rex

Sorry, I forgot to sign my real name. It's Shamus. that ID was already taken when I registered, just like with my email. So I'm officially machismo on the site, but my name is Shamus.

The rocker covers aren't chromed, as far as I can tell. The engine isnt' steam cleaned to shine for concours, so it's covered with a patina of grime. But I assume a chromed cover would shine a liitle bit brighter than the rest of the engine, and nothing jumps out.

The car is "sierra desert bronze", such a 70s color that it should have a happy face on the door. Fine by me, I don't want a ticket-getting guards red. And it has those magnesium wheels, which I thought were aftermarket when I first saw the pics, since so many cars of that era went with the fuchs, but I like the look. I'll probably change my mind the first time I rub a curb parallell parking, but for now, I love the rims.

I lean towards john walker, because I like the cut of his jib. But I also know that he's always swamped, and Gerber is a llittle more customer service oriented. Walker actually referred me to Gerber for a PPI, since he was so busy. I bought the car in bellingham, and got ithe PPI there, so it wasn't a consideration. It's good to know that I can't really go wrong.

Rex, if you're in bothell, you might see me tooling around in the Judge. I work in North Creek, across 405 from UW bothell. Right next door to where they are putting in that new sewage treatment center. I often go to the main street ale house in downtown for a sip of good beer after work. If you see a brown 911 near Main Street, it's likely I'm in the ale house. come say hi, and I'll buy you a beer.

Thanks for the tip on the NW forum on pelican. I'll check it out. And I hope to shake your hand at a PWNR event.

Shamus

[e-speedster]

Another mid year - welcome
I'm doing the wevo upgrade too on mine

[javadog]

Shamus,

The fuel smell is not normal, nor is the stalling. I'd suggest carrying a fire extinguisher in the car, if you drive it much before you get it to the shop. In fact, you should probably keep one in the car, period. These things are getting old....

My vote for the shop would be John Walker.

Enjoy the car,

JR

[Gunter]

Nice looking '77.
Hoping that the PPI was done by someone who knows Porsches.
Gas-smell is not good. "Grimy patina on engine"? Not good.
Not knowing if the case was time-certed: Not good.
Does it have a pop-off valve in the airbox?
Stalling may be something small like a mix-adjust.
I suggest to book a visit to JW to have a tune-up done. JW will look it over and make some recommendations. That way, you have a base-line with new points, rotor, cap, plugs, filters, mix adjust, etc.
Keep a log with mileage and dates. (And a fire ext.)
Carry spares like belt, relays, fuses and get a used Bosch 3-pin CDI module because they are very expensive new.
Have fun.

[wholberg]

Run the car until it its warm, then turn it off and trace the fuel path from the injectors back to the tank. You might have a small crack in a rubber hose, or a leaking clamp (i.e. fuel filter). If you look carefully and feel hoses and clamps for wetness, you might find it. I had a fuel filter go bad once from seepage of the canister where is was crimped together.

Check for brittle or cracked vacuum hoses and replace any that are bad. Make sure that the correct diameter vacuum hose was used throughout the engine. Tighten any clamps or seals in the intake system, and check the bolt torque on the intake manifolds.

If you do all these things and it still runs lousy, try leaning out the mixture a little bit, or take it in. With a used car, I always replace the "consumables", such as belts and hoses, shortly after purchase so I know what I have.

Thanks for the advice., everyone.

I did look for cracks in the fuel line, as best as I could, but it's certainly not a complete inspection. The car was warm at the time, but it had no fuel smell. It's only the once, when it had sat for a couple of days, and then only when I cracked open the engine hatch, that I got a strong whiff of fuel.

I do have a fire extinquisher in the car, but it's a kitchen type that I used to keep in the corolla. A small one I can mount in the car is on my list. The previous owner has spare belts and fuses, but not the fuel injector part.

Walker or Gerber will see the car by the end of this month. The previous owner is sending me some receipts that I didn't get at purchase, and once I get those, I'll set the appointment, so we can set up a maintainence schedule with full knowledge of what's been done in the past five years.

I talked at length with the person (Kim at John's repair in Bellingham, WA) who maintained the car, and he he certainly seemed competent in 911 repair. And the PPI went well.

To be clear, the "patina" I was talking about was simple road dirt. It's not a grimy engine, certainly not compared to my corolla, just not concours shiny. I'll try to upload a pic of the engine.

And I was told by Kim that the thread inserts in the crankcase were done, just that he didn't know if it was the time-cert or casesaver brand. The air box does have the pop off valve. 11 blade fan, thermal reactors removed, chain tensioner upgrade. Unknown as to what type of bolts they used. oil temp never gets over 180.

I wouldn't characterize the engine as running poorly. In most applications, it runs really smoothlly. It seems more like I do something sub-optimal with the clutch, that stresses the engine, usually on a steep hill from a stop, and the engine gets in a rough running mode where it stalls on decelleration. Perhaps it's just me. But I will have the mechanic look into it. I don't need to be screwing around with the vacuum. I'll kill the car if I start messing around with those things.

I didn't buy this thing on a whim. I did many months of research. I read the Frere book cover to cover, and the Zimmerman book, and the info on this site, particularly when I was looking at a 2.7L. None of the things that I mentioned in my questions popped up in the test drive, or even the 2 hr drive home, just have cropped up over time. they are minor annoyances that don't really diminsih my love for the car. I'm more concerned with the notion if they are something that are just part and parcel with this era 911, or if it's something to bring up with the mechanic. I think I have a better handle on that now, and thanks to everyone for the information.

Shamus

[Paulporsche]

Congratulations and welcome. As others have said, your stalling may simply be from a too rich mixture, but your plan to take it to a reputable tech for establishing a baseline is probably best for anyone w/ a new (to them) car.

Let s know what happens.

[David E. Clark]

I've been reading John Walker's posts on this board for many years and from what I've read, he really seems to know his stuff. Of course I live 3000 miles away and have no direct knowledge but after what I've read in his posts, I'd have no problems taking my car to him.

As far as the fuel smell goes, I'd start by replacing all the fuel and vacuum lines. Old fuel and vacuum lines sometimes crack or begin to seep and this could account for the fuel smell. Replacing these is relatively inexpensive and gives you a good baseline for future maintenance. If this doesn't solve the problem, have whatever mechanic you choose check to see if your fuel/air mixture is too rich. Nice car, good luck.

[1yearonLy]

Welcome to the mid-year crew. Especially us '77 guys. That galvanized body just might come in handy with the rain up there.

Love that color and the car looks to be very original. I can't tell if it has a sunroof?

Here's to you and yours!! Oh and here's mine...

[Gunter]

Sounds better and better, Shamus.
Consider getting rid of the extra heater fan blower and hoses to make more room in the engine compartment.
Back-dating to SSI's would do that and give you about 10-15 horses more.

That's a good looking car, Scott. No sunroof on my car. Which was a plus for me. That's just one more thing to leak, and the sun really isn't my friend. I live in Seattle for a reason. I like rainy days where the sun is only up for about 6 hours, and even then, it's only vaguely discernable through a dense cloud layer. though the more I drive the Judge in the fine spring sun, with a little Soul Coughing bass driving me along, the more I think a targa wouldn't be half bad. Or even a boxster.

I got the receipts from the previous owner. And when I went through them, I noticed that about once a year, he had them check out poor idle, restart problems, and stalling. There was a vacuum hose repair in there, but mostly a fuel filter thing. So I just put in some fuel injector cleaner, which I do every haloween for my corolla, and bam. Stalling problem is gone. I'll still mention it to my mechanic.

Fuel smell never came back, but it's still puzzling that it happened that once. I also haven't let the car sit for that long since. It's too much fun, gas prices be damned.

I called John Walker and tried to set up an appointment, but got a message and he didn't call back. That's fine. I'd prefer to go with him, since I like the cut of his jib, but he also told me when I talked to him about PPI that I should check out Gerber, since he was so busy these days.

I'd like to get the car on a program, and make sure that it's ready to run in the PNWR driver's education June 23, their next novice day. So if anything needs to be done, I need to get it done. I called Gerber and they set me up for an appointment this Friday. The British accent dude on the phone knew his 911, and was right on the same page as me as to what I wanted done with the car. A post-purchase get to know you, a review of known history of the car, checking it for the quirks I've noticed, checking it for track safety, and setting up a wish list of upgrades. I noted that in my driving the biggest annoyance was the shifting and they said that perhaps I didn't need to go WEVO right off the bat, perhaps they can check the bushings and put better tranny oil in it. In any case, we'll drive it around a bit on Friday and set up a program.

I've read up on the SSI heat exchangers. But I didn't know about removing the rear heater blower. Seems a shame, since the previous owner paid a bit to have it replaced when he bought the car. Is the extra space in the boot a courtesy to my mechanic, or are there performance enhancements beyond the weight savings?

Right now, I don't care so much about the HP of the car, since I'm not proficient in driving it. I'm more inclined to put my money into making it safe for the track or cones, learning how to drive it well, and then in beefing up non-engine components. And just driving the 2.7L engine until it blows up, and replacing it with a later, tuned engine.

I geeked out this weekend and put together a resume for my car. Perhaps I've been a project manager for too long. I've got the vitals of the car and my contact info in the header, listed the ohjectives for the visit in bullet points, and created a table that records the known and anecdotal history of the car for easy review. I spent a few hours going through all the recepts that I got from the previous owner, putting in the date and mileage, and everything done on the invoice. Okay, it labels me as a dork, but I am a dork and am remarkably comfortable with that. If anything, there will be no misunderstanding, and no mistakes about what was done. And it serves as a good template for tracking future work. I imagine that if I have to sell this car down the line that it will be appreciated by the buyer.

[Rex Walter]

Machismo,

In an earlier post I asked about the shinny rocker covers (the part of the body below the doors between the front and rear wheels). I've since learned that this is a stainless steel trim option that is fairly rare. Very nice.

The British guy at Gerber is Mark - and yes he does know his Porsche's.

Good luck at the track - Rex

Rex:

Hah!

When you said rocker covers, I thought you meant a cover for rocker arms. But come to think of it, I'm not sure how the boxer engine ties the cam and valves, so maybe the car doesn't even have rocker arms. Yet another reason to buy more books.

I just looked on google, and some places do sell rocker covers that are clearly engine parts, so I'm not completely insane. Just mostly.

The Judge faiils its first test!

I took the car in to Gerber today. Mark's a pretty nice guy and put up with my ignorance quite well. He gave it a look over and a track inspection, and it failed the inspection. Which did not surprise me in the least, since it was a daily driver for the previous owner, and had not been tracked under his watch.

The main reason that it failed was that the rear shocks were shot and the sway bar mount was broken, and the bushings were worn. The side mirror was also loose, the gas cap seal was cracked, and someone in the past had put in the wrong battery and made a mount for it that's too loose.

I only paid 8 grand for the car, so I budgeted a couple of grand in first year fixes, and the estimate on the work was reasonable, so it's not a problem. Makes me wonder about the quality of the care that it got in bellingham, and the "misunderstandings" that I had with the mechanic up there getting my PPI. I used the guy who maintained the car, and when I talked to the service rep, she had me down for a full PPI, but when I got the results, they had only done leakdown, and I had to talk them into doing the compresion testing.

And besides the battery thing, there were a lot of choices made during the car's tenure with the former mechanic. They replaced one part of the fuel injection, but didn't use the right coil. The tires have the wrong profile, which explains why my speedo is off. That sort of thing. Oh well, it's in good hands now.

I need to replace the front and rear window seals, as well, and do the rear brakes. there may be an oil leak, or it could be spilled oil from adding a little now and then. I have to clean the engine before my next appointment.

Most of it can be done by Gerber, and we have that appointment next week. Mark told me that the easiest fix for the battery was to make a new clamp. I have a friend with an amateur metal shop, so that might be something I can actually do.

Mark did say that they encourage their customers to do work on their cars. I told him that I wanted to stay away from the motor, but I didn't seem to accurately impress upon him how mechanically disinclined I am. I used to tackle projects on my volkswagens (super beetle then squareback) and there was a very strong correlation between me tinkering with the car and the car breaking down, getting towed, and needing professional help. When I got the corolla, I banned myself from even changing the oil. I don't have tools beyond screwdrivers and vice grip pliers, which I use instead of every wrench. I don't even have off-street parking. I guess I can't get them to change the oil. My idea of a good project is fixing a torn seat or oiling the door handle. I'm not adverse to trying to learn, but feel bad about using the Judge as a guinea pig.

Mark told me to buy Wayne's books, and I'll do that. I'll still try to talk them into doing the oil changes. Maybe I should have gone for the MR2. I certainly had concerns that I was getting into a car that I had no ability or resources to maintain myself. But it wasn't a rational decision. It was pure love. I talked myself into finding a place in my life for a classic car I probably wasn't ready for. I figured I could give it a shot, and if I failed, I can sell it and slink back to the MR2. I don't know if I can do that after having lived with the 911.

Gerber had a couple of really sweet 964s outside his place. They had an engine dropped on a 80s carerra, and had a 996 cab getting some work done, as well as an old land rover. They're all nice folks, and Mark had to interrupt our initial talk for a visit from John Walker. I didn't care, I was hanging out in a porsche shop on my day off. I could have just stayed there all day and watched them work. I walked home, which is around 3 miles, and about halfway home, realized that I should have just asked John for a ride. I only live about a mile from Walker's, and it's downhill. ah well, it was a nice day, but I'm sporting a sunburn and sore calves. Wearing the chucks for a long walk is a bad idea.

I asked for a quote on a WEVO kit, and was steered away from it. They said they were going to check out the tranny, and see if bushings and new fluid would help, but I forgot to follow up on that. And damn, if the car handles like it does with a shot rear suspension, I can't freakin' wait to drive it next week.

[subwayrat356]

Nice car! I am in Oregon- just picked up my first porsche-- a 1977 911s in the same color. when i scrolled down and saw yours, I had to chuckle. Since the reason i found your thread was because I searched for "stalling 1977 911s". Thanks everyone for the advice!