Does my starter solenid need lubing?

Formerly Steve Wilkinson · 08-12-2008, 12:35 PM

Tell me what's wrong with my starter. About one out of every hundred starts, it won't turn. No sound that I can discern, maybe a tiny click from the ignition switch. Roll the car 15 feet and pop the clutch and it fires right up, assuming it's warm ('83 SC). Drive 25 miles home just fine, park, shut down, try the starter again, nothing. Battery is at 12.6 volts, engine off.

Then when I reach under the car and tap the starter with a 6" heavy cold chisel--not even a hammer or a mallet, just a convenient piece of metal I can use without even bothering to jack up the car--the starter works fine, and it seems to just take a couple of taps, nothing like a good whack.

Sounds to me like the solenoid mechanism needs lubing, even though the starter is only a year old. (It's one of those PoS Tilton lightweights--never again.)

Is there a way to lube that mechanism without removing the starter, like jacking the car, removing the right rear wheel and squirting away with an old-fashioned oilcan?

JFairman · 08-12-2008, 12:48 PM

I've seen the same exact things you mention on a late 70's BMW big six motor. That one is a Bosch starter.
You can remove the starter and then the solenoid form it and take it apart and decide from there if cleaning, greasing, and putting it back is worth the trouble. You have to see how much wear is on the pivot pin and the electrical contacts.

I think with all the dirty labor involved it's usually better to just put a new solenoid in if it's worn.

Formerly Steve Wilkinson · 01:19 PM

The thing can't be worn. It has maybe 500 miles on it in a year. I'm just wondering if it's possible to lube it somewhat from the outside. I understand that I can take everything apart, I'm trying to avoid that; I don't have a lift, and it's a pain for an old guy like me to do it lying on my back under a ton of German steel in the driveway...

JFairman · 08-12-2008, 01:22 PM

I've only taken apart Bosch starters so I was making a generalization to help people having the starter solenoid symptoms you're having.

So, I shouldn't have commented on your Tilton unit.

Formerly Steve Wilkinson · 08-12-2008, 01:30 PM

No, I didn't mean at all that you shouldn't have commented. I greatly appreciate it. I'm glad if nothing else to know that the syndrome is identifiable and not uncommon.

I'm just hoping somebody's who's been there will say either "Wet 'er down with some SAE 50" or "put down the oilcan or you'll ruin the windings..." I wouldn't surprised to hear that the latter is the case.

Superman · 08-12-2008, 01:38 PM

The solenoid's electrical components SHOULD be protected from water, oil, etc. But......squirting the outside with WD40 isn't going to get at the mechanisms you need to free. The "Bendix" mechanism that the solenoid activates in the starter body takes thick grease which gets thicker and packed with dust over time. It dries. Takes longer than a year, though. Or should. Upon disassembly of an old starter, the caked, dried grease is easy to find, clean and relube.

Inside the solenoid there is another mechanism, a relay of sorts. It switches voltage TO the starter once the solenoid has extended far enough to cause the Bendix mechanism to move the nose gear of the starter forward into the ring gear. The starter nose gear needs to engage the ring gear teeth BEFORE the starter starts spinning, and the solenoid's job is to do these tasks one at a time. Push the nose gear forward......and THEN energize the starter windings.

In the olden days, the copper or brass mechanism that makes this electrical connection got burnt by the voltage, developed carbon and stopped making good electrical contact. It was a rectangular thing that could be removed, flipped over and reinstalled.

911pcars · 08-12-2008, 02:54 PM

It could be borderline resistance (or boderline solenoid) resulting in enough voltage drop to prevent the solenoid from energizing 100% of the time. Some folks add a remote relay to shorten the electrical distance between the ign. switch and the solenoid.

Sherwood

rnln · 08-12-2008, 05:24 PM

Steve,
Exact same thing happend to me, even on new starter. Whenever it gets too hot, it does it. In my particular case, it is multiple problems. Whenever the solenoid stuck AND the voltage on the yellow wire is weak, it does it. Ao a tap with some metal/heavy object will do it OR a strong 12v to the yellow wire will do it too. I finally lead a wire up to the engine area to give it 12 volt whenever it has this problem. So far, it works.

john70t · 02:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 911pcars

It could be borderline resistance (or boderline solenoid) resulting in enough voltage drop to prevent the solenoid from energizing 100% of the time. Some folks add a remote relay to shorten the electrical distance between the ign. switch and the solenoid.
Sherwood

+1. The Tilton solenoid may require a few more amps than is currently being supplied (mabye it has a heavier return spring than the Bosch?). Check, clean, and tighten ground straps just in case.

Formerly Steve Wilkinson · 08-13-2008, 03:38 AM

So why would tapping it (engine off, starter not energized) fix the problem? I'm certaiinly not increasing the amperage by doing that. Feels to me like it's simply sticking. Oh, and I have checked, cleaned and tightened every possible alternator, starter and battery strap and ground numerous times during this six-month epic, search for my very occasional starting problems. they're clean as whistles and tight as ticks.

john70t · 08-13-2008, 05:43 AM

Steve, you are probably right that the benzel is sticking, but the extra power from a remote relay might overcome that resistance 100% of the time. Take it out and bench test it to check the action. Or, just change the starter.

You must be peeved, your last post had both gramatical and punctuation errors

(Sorry, rarely do I get the chance to say it). Good luck.

Formerly Steve Wilkinson · 08-13-2008, 06:02 AM

So where would this relay go, and how would it be wired? Somewhere close to the starter, like in the engine compartment, I assume? Wire from the ignition switch activates the relay and the relay feeds power through the yellow wire?

Be aware there are no electronics in this car--carbs instead of CIS, no ECU, just air/gas/spark.

Oh, wait. I'll do a search, too.

john70t · 07:44 AM

Basic description is:
-Run a new heavier guage wire between the battery and the starter solenoid. This will have a relay(electronic switch) in line.
-The smaller ignition wire from the key(which used to be hooked up to the starter solenoid) goes to this relay instead, and selectively activates it.

When the key is turned to the "start" position, it closes this new relay to let more amps to flow directly to the starter solenoid.

john70t · 08-13-2008, 07:42 AM

Just to confuse the issue: you're adding a relay system onto a relay system.
As Superman said, the starter solenoid also acts as a high-current relay(turning the starter motor) following it's mechanical solenoid action (popping out the drive gear into the flywheel).

Since you can't safely have 50amps flowing from the battery (through the ignition switch) to the starter motor, low amps from the ignition switch control the starter solenoid action remotely. In this case possibly too low.

911pcars · 08:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Formerly Steve Wilkinson

So where would this relay go, and how would it be wired? Somewhere close to the starter, like in the engine compartment, I assume? Wire from the ignition switch activates the relay and the relay feeds power through the yellow wire?

Be aware there are no electronics in this car--carbs instead of CIS, no ECU, just air/gas/spark.

Oh, wait. I'll do a search, too.

Some starter motor armatures are a tight fit inside the field coils. A hammer rap sometimes distorts the housing enough to allow the armature to rotate. Sometimes heat soak (from engine and exhaust) causes the armature to expand and prevent free rotation.

I documented the installation of a remote relay here, mainly to extend the life of the NLA ignition switch. The crank position receives the most wear.

"-Run a new heavier guage wire between the battery and the starter solenoid. This will have a relay(electronic switch) in line."

Rather than routing another wire through the tunnel from the front, connect a short length of 12 ga. wire to the existing battery cable connection at the starter solenoid to provide source voltage for the add-on relay. The existing battery cable is equivalent to about 0 gauge and will produce less voltage drop than 10 feet of thinner (12 ga.) wire.

Hope this helps,
Sherwoood

Ned, NYNA11 · 08-13-2008, 08:51 AM

Stephan,

I would verify that the solenoid circuit is 100%. From the ignition switch, a yellow wire in a bundle goes through the firewall via a plug. The plug should be fully engaged.

From the other side of the firewall the wire goes to the 14 pin connector in the engine compartment and from there it traverses the engine to the starter solenoid.

Check all the connections in the yellow wire circuit.

Use a voltmeter to verify voltage at the solenoid when you operate the ignition switch. Use a long connector to get the meter where you can see it.

Ask an assistant, nicely, to operate the ignition switch while you touch the solenoid. a good click means the switch is closing and if the starter does not spin, then the solenoid switch contacts are dirty.

It's not a big job to remove the starter, take it apart and rig up a circuit on a bench with a battery and test it. Restrain the starter if you do this. As they say , ask me how I know.

Superman · 08-13-2008, 09:12 AM

There is no need to run a new wire from the battery to the solenoid. There is immense power and very little resistance on the BIG CABLE coming to the starter from the battery. It is from that terminal that you power the starter relay, if you install one. Yes, a relay is a good idea. Sometimes the voltage coming from the yellow wire is too wimpy to activate the solenoid, and a relay will solve that problem.

And of course, all connections including and especially the ground strap should be shiny and tight and covered with silicon grease.

911pcars · 08-13-2008, 09:24 AM

"Use a voltmeter to verify voltage at the solenoid when you operate the ignition switch. Use a long connector to get the meter where you can see it."

Good idea. However, during cranking (if it cranks), system voltage will drop to about 9+ volts due to the electrical needs of the starter motor. To confirm source voltage at the end of the yellow wire is about the same as at the battery, disconnect the yellow wire from the solenoid, attach VM lead to it, then rotate the ignition switch to the crank position and observe the voltage.

Note: To measure voltage drop in a circuit, one would place the + and - leads at the opposite ends of the circuit (or portion therof) to be tested, then switch the circuit ON. In the above situation, one would normally have to extend the VM leads with long jumper wires to the circuit section to test.

However, the aforementioned connection works fine: Measure source voltage at switch, then measure source voltage at the end of the wire; then subtract voltage reading for total voltage drop. Should be typically less than .1 volt or so.

You may also want to measure the voltage drop within the ignition switch to confirm the internal contacts are okay as well.

Sherwood

scottbooth · 08-13-2008, 10:32 AM

I am sorting out this same problem (pretty intermittent so far) with my (knockoff) Tilton, and here is the sum of my own observations and research:

(1) The internal relay inside the solenoid can and does wear, and quickly. About a year into my new starter I experienced this problem and removed the starter to replace or fix. I found a lot of carbon and some pitting on the big copper washer that forms the relay contact to energize the starter windings. Cleaned it up, and it was good for about 4 years, until now.

(2) The solenoid may be poorly lubed at the factory. I re-lubed the solenoid piston while I had things apart, above, because the existing grease was dried out and sticky. I wonder if the grease used at the factory was not up to the high temps in that area (as compared to some water cooled engine the Tilton style starter was actually designed for)? I used high temp wheel bearing grease so should not have that problem again, if indeed I had it before.

(3) The electrical portion of the ignition switch can degrade over time. This was something that I learned reading around here. When the solenoid de-energizes, the back EMF current causes an arc inside the ignition switch, so over time the switch can get dodgy. (The arc issue can be fixed by connecting a diode backwards across the starter solenoid coil.)

(4) When this stuff gets hot, it doesn't work as well.

The interesting thing to realize is that a starter relay, new ignition switch, or new battery can mask all of the above problems by providing just a little more current, which can overcome the additional electrical (dirty switch contacts) and/or mechanical (gummed up solenoid) resistances of an aging system.

I bought a new ignition switch (electrical part only) to keep on hand in the track toolbox until I get around to installing it. No idea if it will help, as the car has been doing fine lately. The next time the engine is out I will clean and lube the POS starter again or replace it with something else.

Good luck
Scott

RoninLB · 08-14-2008, 10:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Formerly Steve Wilkinson

Sounds to me like the solenoid mechanism needs lubing, even though the starter is only a year old. (It's one of those PoS Tilton lightweights--never again.)

Is there a way to lube that mechanism without removing the starter,

had the same issue on a relatively new Tilton on a hot summer Florida ride.

took the starter down and lubed the solenoid and slightly sanded the internal tube hoping the clearances were just too tight. Inside the solenoid was clean and still had some grease. Looked great in there.

I also have a relatively new ignition switch and clean & widened 14 pin connector.

happened again on a desert ride.

I ran a marine 12 ga yellow from the large starter battery lug to a marine 30 amp Cole-Hersee waterproof momentary on with silver contacts and back to the solenoid. It's mounted in engine compartment for those infrequent hot start issues.

The added switch has always triggered the solenoid so I'm convinced it's a voltage drop issue.

I just ran some additional new wires from engine compartment to the cabin so I added a length of 8 ga yellow that will eventually run directly from ignition switch to starter solenoid. [Yes, I know 8 ga is overkill.]

the jap starter pelican sells supposedly doesn't have the hot start issue? Will probably order one when time comes but I wouldn't trust it forever anyway.

different strokes.........