Shelve '70E project, buy 911SC?

[YTNUKLR]

SO....

I am in college still. I have built several 911 engines and run a side business in 911 parts, connecting buyers and sellers, designing engine projects, assembling parts packages and doing some work on engines here and there. Probably won't see a 911 for another year, because I'm in school and don't particularly have the time to drive it, but it's always fun to dream.

I have a '70 911E project car (roller) coupe. It is THE car I have always wanted, especially when it's done: the year, the non-sunroof coupe body, the fact that it had factory MFI, the color (Albert Blue), the 901 dog-leg gearbox. The body is cherry, from Arizona. My vision for it is as a hot-rod: basically 2.7RS Touring trim, 911ST seats, stock exterior looks, a hot engine and a nice suspension set-up. The original engine, transmission, and MFI are all in storage because I plan to build my hot-rod engine, transmission and MFI using cores from different cars (70 911T tranny, so I don't blow up the original tranny, 3.0L motor, I think, and MFI from a '69 911E) so I don't destroy my ability to one day bring it back to original matching-numbers status. The engine needs a full rebuild, and the tranny is a little dubious (still need to do the simplified diff mod, gear oil looked nasty, metal particles abound). I own the car outright, it's all mine, no payments to make and I still have food to eat and a bed to sleep on. Student loans are another story, but luckily I don't have a TON on those, and they are very low-interest, so it makes more sense to grow your capital and then pay them off later than to pay them now (not that I could without a decent job after I graduate). I do have a good amount of cash sunk into this project already, probably about $12k. But that is a complete car that I knew was numbers-matching, with a perfect body and a rebuildable engine, transmission, MFI. A known quantity.

Yeah, I could just slap in any old engine, and spend a lot of time and do a lot of work on it to make it drive...but is this any justice for my dream car? Once I want to really make it nice, I'll have to un-do a whole lot of work. I am leaning towards just saving up a pile of money, and once I can afford to do the car right, pull the trigger and do a perfect restoration. I can do a lot of work myself but I see it easily costing me $30k to make the car as nice as I want it, from this point. It will be a little while before I could even thinking about affording it. Until then, I will do some work on it here and there, like a roll bar, acquire engine parts...

A decent early 911 can still be had for less than $30k, granted, it would only be a "decent" car, not my dream car.

I really could never bring myself to sell the 70E before I finished the project, it would just be too depressing and demoralizing. I WILL finish the project one day.

BUT...

I want to drive a 911, and not just work on one. Think it's a good idea to save some cash and go for a NICE 911SC that doesn't need much, and take my time restoring the '70? Or should I just stop thinking about a perfect 911, and slap in some used engine and transmission, pop in some glass and enjoy? [In reality it's more work than that.]

Bet someone's been there before...! Let you's be heard.

Thanks,
Scott

[vanwyk4257]

Don't compromise your vision for the '70 or you'll always have some regrets. Buy a decent 911SC or Carrera depending on your budget so you have one to drive, and take your time on the other project as the funds become available. Heck, you can always sell the SC/Carrera to accelerate the other project as it nears completion.

[Rick V]

Originally Posted by vanwyk4257

Don't compromise your vision for the '70 or you'll always have some regrets. Buy a decent 911SC or Carrera depending on your budget so you have one to drive, and take your time on the other project as the funds become available. Heck, you can always sell the SC/Carrera to accelerate the other project as it nears completion.

Yeah what he said.
Never give up the dream. So mabye you won't be driving the car for another 10 years, big deal. Eyes on the prize.

[Grady Clay]

Scott,

I have followed your ‘Porsche career’ and educational progress with interest over the past several years. You have a significant degree of maturity in your approach to all this.

Michael’s advice to not compromise your vision for the ‘70E is right on the mark. Even if you shelve the project for a decade and just continue to collect parts, you will never regret the decision.

I understand the desire to drive a 911. Sure you can buy a 911SC driver to satisfy that desire. Why not keep that desire in check and, while in college, just drive a Geo Metro and use a campus bike. Put your industrious profits toward paying off the student loan and collecting the restoration parts for the 911E. It will be nice to graduate with no debt and have the 911E ‘in the bank’.

I suddenly hear lots of ‘me’ and ‘now’. What are the plans after graduation? Certainly you are a prime candidate for grad school and a professional career. How does all this fit together with life? Until you start a career and a family you have a unique opportunity to travel the world independently. Take advantage of that opportunity and not hermit yourself in the garage building a 911.

Another aspect of the 911E is the ‘chase’. The ‘game’ of collecting the parts, particularly satisfying with bargain ‘find’ costs, is part of the process. Your mind’s vision of the final product will always exceed the reality. What do you eventually do with the ideal 911? Put it in a glass case or use it up driving the snot out of it? Most choose something in between and throw excess maintenance money at it to stay on ‘top of the form’.

I make the analogy to a box of Kleenex. You start with a nice new box full of Kleenex and madly rip the tissue out. Periodically you refill the box. Occasionally you have to repair the box with some tape, cardboard and staples. Eventually you need to buy a new box. Transfer this to 911 ownership. You will be building a new 911E box, partially from the remnants of others use, abuse and neglect. Add some new parts, 38+ years of hindsight and your creativeness and you have something better than Porsche built in 1970.

Life is full of choices.

So much for my Sunday morning sermon….

Best,
Grady

[porsche930dude]

I say keep an eye out for a deal on an sc. It will keep you from loosing intrest in the 70

[RWebb]

I often feel the same way...

You should listen to Brutha Grady tho.

[berettafan]

i wish dearly someone had pushed me harder to buy r/e when i was in college. i'd be driving a GT3 to work every day if i had.

i know Ca. is maybe a bit different of course.

[berettafan]

an option is to get the car driveable and reliable then come back to it when you're more settled financially.

[kilodawg]

Follow the consensus and for short term gratification and interim goals save up a little here and there to acquire any of the detail parts you might need/want before they skyrocket out of reach. Appreciate that as a substitute for the driving experience.....

[RWebb]

slapping in any old engine (that is the 3L or 2.7L base for what you will build later), and spending time & work on it to make it drive... would be excellent temporary justice for your dream car

and that would likely be less costly than buying a SC outright

it is easy to drop the entire powertrain on these cars - so you can put whatever in there now and then swap it quickly once you get "real" "dream" powertrain all together.

What does the car need to be driveable other than motr & trans?
- you said it was cherry

What is the risk of damage/fire/theft to the car if you are driving it and parking it in Berkeley?
Same query re storing it in or near Berkeley?
- now compare the two risks - the difference is one cost of using it

another cost of using it now is the defocusing of your attn on your studies

[maze]

When I was in collage I drove an old Junker sports car…I had a great time driving that car and tinkering to keep it going. I sold that car to help buy my first house. 20 years later I went out and bought another just like it. But you know what? It just wasn’t the same. It wasn’t THE car I spent my youth in. My feeling is that you develop a true bond with your car only after many years of use and adventure which cannot be replaced by any other car. Restoration comes later and is often mixed with an unspoken desire to recreate halcyon days of youth.
My advise is to put it together with the original engine and trans, and enjoy it while maintaining it knowledgeably and with a sense for preservation.
If love the early 911, why buy an SC?
One thing I know about dreams, once lived they are replaced by a bigger, more refined dream. If they are not lived, they remain just dreams.
Final point, all my buddies with restored cars constantly talk about buying a “driver”. Their cars are too expensive in their minds to drive. The Porsche market is pretty good just now, but could easily pull back in the future. To me the biggest mistake would be to spend time and money to restore a car and then leave it in the garage while you enjoy the “driver” everyday. In the end you will miss the driver.
My 2 cents. Good luck
Maze

[YTNUKLR]

vanwyk, Rick V - solid advice. Especially selling the SC as I get near to completion, because the SC will kind of keep me sane until then.

Grady - Always good to hear your "sermons" . You have obviously been here and done this so I know I can count on your knowledge.

At the moment, I just ride a bicycle around campus and couldn't wish for anything better. It allows me to go on sidewalks sometimes, go around the Berkeley road-blocks, cut around traffic and generally get where I want to go faster than a car. If I went more than a few miles it would be a different story, though. For now I am content.

I have a 97 Toyota Camry (most boring car ever) that is silver champagne (most boring color ever). I just use this to haul my stuff and parts between Los Angeles and the Bay area sometimes, but the costs of storage and fuel are high so lately I have just been using Southwest airlines and flying between school and my Mom's home. I will probably keep this car for basic transportation when I graduate, just a good and completely inconspicuous transporter car.

Won't be doing a car resto until the loans are safely all gone. But in the meantime I have been playing around on InTrade and doing a wee bit of investing. So far I am doing better than the student loan losses to interest, so I'm net up.

Been watching friends graduate lately and see what they go off to do. Some plan on grad school, some are just going off to work. I have been doing research in the functional brain-imaging lab on campus, and while it's extremely interesting, the hours put in for what I can hope to get out of it down the road just don't add up for me. The experience is good, the people I've met are great, but doing it after college or going to Med School or full-time research (what most brain-scanner technicians do) just isn't what I'm after. I do think I'd like to go to business school for an MBA or something in a few years, but after I graduate I plan on getting a job or at least interning somewhere where I might like to get a job. Perhaps finish my BS in M.E...

I have tried to be very conscious of not locking myself in a garage doing 911 work. I like it, but I realize I have to balance life, and indeed like other subjects and activities besides Porsches. When I was younger (13-18), I immersed myself totally in Pelican and Porsches, and I have taken that knowledge with me (thanks, guys), but in college I have branched out into other areas of concentration, like math, physics and biology (my major is Cognitive Science...was doing Mechanical Engineering), but also history and traveling and a bit of language (Latin). Also became very interested in computer-assisted design (CAD) stuff and parts modeling from my ME classes. I hope to get some side time to work on a machine or run some CNC stuff this fall.

Since 18, I have been to Greece, Turkey, Panama, Peru, Bolivia, the Philippines, and this summer I have worked my way through Thailand and Cambodia. In fact, as I write this, I just got off a bus in Ho Chi Minh City, Vietnam. So I think I am doing enough traveling, and it is my "other" love..one of them.

Seems to be the case that my mind's vision will always surpass the reality regarding the 911. But I am OK with that; if you get even close to peace of mind on the project, that's what really counts. There's a book by Robert Pirsig a lot of you probably know called Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance that I know any motor-head can likely enjoy. In it, he basically makes your Kleenex anology to his motorcycle. You can build it, use it, in fact drive/ride the snot out of it, then rebuild it as necessary, because the item in question is not some disposable piece of consumer crap, but a piece made with Quality, he calls it. This Porsche will basically keep going on doing its thing and never going out of style as long as it is properly maintained. I just haven't even gotten to use the car I bought 2 years ago, but I dream about it constantly.

I can't remember a time when Porsches were not a part of my childhood; growing up, my Dad always had at least one running 911. Since he passed away (9 years ago) I have learned loads about and have "done" Porsches, but I still haven't really driven one that I can say was mine. Porsches are burned in there in my mind somewhere, probably like they are for a lot of you guys. There is just nothing that I would rather have, and it's not about ego, or comfortable transportation, or arguably, anything really rational or sensible. I just have a tremendous passion for them and I feel a void in my spirit that needs to be filled. And sometimes when I see someone spent $15,000,000 on a '60's Ferrari California or GTO, all I can think is, "what a sucker" and the overall win @ Targa Florio by a '73RSR comes to mind. Then I remember you can basically build '73RSR for about 0.5% as much money as that "silly" Ferrari. Not to mention it won't break down as much!

berettafan - where do you wish you'd bought R/E? I can see potential opportunities in R/E, especially internationally, but I firstly don't have the capital. Maybe in a some years down the road, or if I start a business and it does well, or if I win the lotto. What's your scoop?

Randy- I had some time today to think about throwing in a motor and trans. Sounds like a good idea, and increasingly palatable over the "dream" idea. Driving it is the fun part. I won't have my car done for another 1.5-2 years at least, certainly won't be done before I graduate from college, so no worries storing it or parking it in Berkeley.

Maze- not to make you sound old, but that is some sound advice from someone who's been 'round the block on cars and life if I ever heard it. The driver; it's the fun one, not the "dream". The 70E (early car) is it for me; an SC would only be a stop-gap solution... I also learned a vocab word, "halcyon"...Thanks

Here are some pics:



The current condition breakdown:
-original engine needs rebuild...all cylinders leaking 15% +. I have a 3.2 core that needs a rebuild (good core, nothing running, half apart but complete)
-MFI is heavily worn. All needs rebuild. MFI not cost-effective for me now.
-original transmission needs rebuild...dogteeth broken off in sludgy gear oil, simplified differential mod not completed. I have '70 911T 911/01 gearbox that also needs rebuild and the diff mod.
-original shocks are shot. I have Koni 911S shock cores for rebuild.
-3.2 brakes and S brakes needing rebuild, need brake rotors and wheel bearings
-wiring, gas tank, all interior out of the car, rubbers are shot. Need new tank, seat(s)
-loaner wheels. Sold the 14" Fuchs off to my friend for his '70 914-->914/6 conversion.
-paint is a lot worse than it appears, overspray all over.

I guess it's not super far-off. But there is a lot of work to do. Right now, thinking about a 3.0 with some pocketed pistons, top-end rebuild and some used 40mm Webers. Rebuild the '70T tranny, sell my 3.2 core, pick a set of brakes (3.2 or S brakes?) and maybe do some minor things in between studying..


Thanks for your replies.

Scott

[berettafan]

My scoop is i pissed away entirely too much money on toys and junk in my youth when i SHOULD have been investing in the future. Like i said, r/e market is a different animal at any given time and place BUT had i saved up a dn pmt and commited a few bucks/mo towards a rental or even just land vs. buying stereos and always reaching for a slightly nicer car i'd be in much better shape today.

you seem a LOT more mature than i was at your age however.

one last bit; MBA is an acronym for 'mediocre but arrogant' and is, IMO, not a good use of your time. learn a good technical skill (sounds like you are already on this track) and USE IT to pay for your loves (travel, etc).

I am a mgr in a small acct practice and have a small property mgt company. WHEN i move on to my own acctg practice and hopefully hire others to work for me i can tell you this; resumes w/ 'MBA' on them go straight to the recycle bin. My opinion is you learn FAR more in a good internship than you do in school.

but again, your maturity level seems unusually high and i'm sure you'll do awful well at whatever you choose.

[berettafan]

okay one more thing (i swear this is it!): the potential profit/equity you may build into a car like that is a drop in the bucket to compared to what you can do with a proper investment of your time and money.

right now YOU work for your money. you need to turn it around.

[evilfij]

Getting running and driving and make is slowly more perfect as you drive it. Keep all the original parts to make it so one day you can tear it all back down and do complete justice to it. A T or C3 or SC drivetrain should not set you back much and would still be worth about the same when you pull it out to sell it.

Ron

[YTNUKLR]

As my Investments teacher in high school said, "Life is a series of trade-offs."

I have basically only been working towards THIS car. I didn't and do not want any other car, really. So perhaps, I feel, doing it and spending some good time and money on it to make it nice (eventually) is sensible in the long-run, because there isn't much I want besides it. Maybe when I am old and rich one day I'll get a GT3.

For the next several years, I just want to be comfortable, work hard, eat decent meals, have a few weeks of annual vacation, spend time with people I like and have a little spare time to carve a canyon in the 911.

I am certainly trying to figure out how I will get my money working for me, rather than the other way around, but if I died when I was 30, with a stable financial future and without a drivable Porsche, that would not be my life "well-lived" as it were (for me).

[BK911]

It's easy:

Pick up a decent 914 for around $5k and beat the heck out of it. You can probably sell your camry for close to that.

Go to UCF for grad school in high performance engine optimization or
Go to Clemson for grad school in vehicle dynamics.

Work for a local shop / race team while in college.

[gshiwota]

The decision is up to you and it's a tough one. The good news is both Porsches have already reached the bottom of their depreciation curve (obviously the long-nose has been appreciating rapidly for the past decade by now) so even if you buy an SC and change your mind you should be ok financially speaking.

If you want my opinion, get your long hood running now AND plan on rebuilding it to make it perfect once you have more time and more means. Because if you are like me, even if you get a perfect SC, you'll be tinkering on it and you will have another car that you'll be debating about restoring to perfection.

You never know... 5-10 years from now you may have lots of time and lots of money to work on your fleet of Porsches.

Good luck!

Gabe

---------------------
'61 356B Karmann Notchback
'82 911SC Targa

[DW SD]

Originally Posted by berettafan

okay one more thing (i swear this is it!): the potential profit/equity you may build into a car like that is a drop in the bucket to compared to what you can do with a proper investment of your time and money.

right now YOU work for your money. you need to turn it around.

+1 I like this advice.

Did you read this book: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Millionaire_Next_Door ?

The principles are outstanding.

I see no need for having two 911s. I like the advice to put your car together, maybe using a less than ideal powertrain and simply be able to enjoy it. When I was about your age (I'm 36, now) I built a 240Z w/ chevy 350. I drove it for a year and then took it apart to make it better. I lost interest, had no $ and ten years later it seemed too daunting when I actually had the funds to pick up where I left off. By that time, I had a house in the Bay Area, investments going, etc.

I wish I had done things a bit more piecemeal, as I would have had more enjoyment from it.

If you pushed hard, the way I see it, you could have your car back together in a matter of months. If you were driving it regularly, maybe you'd even end up with a different vision for it, than if it sat in the garage?

These things are never really done anyways. With your skills and knowledge, I think this should be fairly straightforward to piece it together. As Grady pointed out, maybe you'll find some opporutnities that will save you some $.

Doug

[RWebb]

some OT advice from a former Biology professor -- huge growth areas will be in your interest areas - neurobiology in general, computational neurobiology, and the use of such biological knowledge to design robots - real robots, that can do something at least as complex as a cockroach or honey bee. Your major and interests are well suited for all that. However, the dedication and focus of an academic life, a medical life, or a life in a high-tech industry will be upwards of 70 hours a week. You are not going to be driving anything if you go whole hog into any of those areas, and many people have support network (often = wife) who prepares meals, does laundry, and in one case even dropped the guy off at his lab and picked him up at midnight every day.

An interested mind is always going to direct the fingers into too many pies at once...

You need to get some guidance from your faculty advisor. You might also drop by Bob Full's lab on your campus and talk to him.

Basically, describe your interests and say "but I don't really know what to with myself..."

Best wishes - and you are not too far away from having a drivable car.