How do you correct a slide/fishtail?

[Brotok]

When a friend of mine gets into a wild fishtail with his 2001 996TT he will fight it and when the car is fishtailing but pointed straight he will slam on the brakes to get it to stay there. To my surprise, I've seen this work.

In my 911 SC, I typically floor the car when the tail gets wild and jump both feet in as soon as I realize that it is too far gone in the hopes of having it slide down the road and not hit anything. The other day I tried doing what my friend does, and it actually worked.

I've also heard of people putting in the clutch when they are fishtailing, once the car is pointed straight, to get out of the fishtail.

I am curious to hear what people think about the approaches to correcting a fishtail that I have listed, and what the experienced drivers around here do in these situations.

Thank you for reading,

Brotok

[jorian]

Is this a companion post to your "Paint your own car" post? You and your friend sound like you're 16.

[Facey]

does his age matter?
relevant to the answer?

anyways, i'll start with a disclaimer...i'm not a pro driver, nor do i think i'm a very fast driver...

but i can get a car side ways in safe settings and pull it back....
and on the rare ocasion where a car has kicked out on me when i was not provoking it, you have several options...


a) ride it out, constant throttle, steering adjustment to keep the car going desired direction

b) off the throttle, lighter correction be prepared for the snap back...

generally pressing the brakes is not a good idea... as the rear wheels have already lost traction (hence your sliding), so using your brakes will stop the front (which still have traction), and while it will slow down the rear, it will also increase your angle.

this is all worsened with rear engine...

996/997 is a different ball game with traction and spin control

better to go to a 'crash avoidance' course and figure this out safely... they will set you up for a spin, a slide, emergency braking..etc... more rush than you can do safely on the street...

after that track time is the trick.

[ted]

Originally Posted by jorian

Is this a companion post to your "Paint your own car" post? You and your friend sound like you're 16.

I'd rather field the slide than the paint question.
this is the Porsche diy forum.

[911Rob]

Proper driving must become an instinct and therefore it takes practise.

Get yourself an old beater and a gravel road. Strap on a helmut and start practising.
My best friend at 16 had a dad that raced cars and he taught us to drive this way.
You can control a fishtail or spin, just like butter

BTW, FWIW, IMHO

[VroomGrrl]

+1 "track time is the trick." This stuff is best learned and practiced in a safe, controlled environment. Check with your local PCA, SCCA, NASA or PBOC chapter for a high performance driver's education class.

P.S. Please list your location and times you are most likely to be on the roads, would you?

[Brotok]

Thank you for the replies

I do not understand why Jorian considers my questions immature and why he took the opportunity to offend me. But maybe its this kind of inconsiderate and ignorant attitude on the part of mortgage brokers like him that got the economy into its current mess, or maybe he is just seeking an ego boost after thrashing the nation's economy with greed.

For the record, all of my and my friend's competitive driving takes place in safe conditions - both of us track our cars often - and the paint post has nothing to do with my need to control a slide. I most certainly have recovered several slides in my car but am anxious to learn as much as possible about driving and that is why I decided to ask about this technique that I saw my friend do.

The productive replies have been very interesting so far, and I do apologize for posting in the wrong place.

Thank you

[Axeman]

I would try to practice what Valentino is doing, seems to work pretty well!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wdsusin8nbw

[robert walsh]

Welcome, at times people have a funny way of saying that. I am not a professional either, I have spent the years of my youth dirt tracking VW's, Corvair's and Porsches, I always turn the wheel into the spin or fish tail, while backing off the accelerator, no brakes for me, unless I'm damn sure I'm going to hit something, the braking at that point was instinctual. As soon as steering "into" got some control back I always nailed the accelerator, right or wrong it's what w orked best for me. Best regards. P.S. I probably didn't tell you anything you didn't already know.

[JohnJL]

Clarkson just about looses it there.

[emac]

As a retired cop and after attending a number of driving schools I will share my 2c. We were taught to "keep you eyes on where you want to be" kind of hard to do when you are doing a 360. Funny but it works. From experience I can say that the few times I lost it I let off the gas and once she started to get back in control I downshifted and hit the gas, I was shocked that I was going straight again. Hope this helps.

[89911]

Your questions are a bit unusual. I'll try to break them down:

When a friend of mine gets into a wild fishtail with his 2001 996TT he will fight it and when the car is fishtailing but pointed straight he will slam on the brakes to get it to stay there. To my surprise, I've seen this work.

How often is you friend getting into "wild fishtails" with an all wheel drive car sitting on huge tires on all 4 corners? Is this a problem or is he just goofing around? It could something as simple as his tires are shot. Usually, if your encouraging a fishtail for whatever reason, the last thing you want to do is slam on the brakes. Then you just look like someone that doesn't know how to drive a car, especially if this is happening repeately.

In my 911 SC, I typically floor the car when the tail gets wild and jump both feet in as soon as I realize that it is too far gone in the hopes of having it slide down the road and not hit anything. The other day I tried doing what my friend does, and it actually worked.

Another puzzler. Gone to far as in you have done a complete 180? Then, yes both feet in, but on a public road??? If you just starting to break traction, you actually have to go opposite intuition and mash the gas pedal to gather what traction you can to correct the slide. Easier to do on a track with plenty of run off. Not so easy on roads with mailboxes and trees. If you state that hitting the brake correct this, well then, don't do it in the first place if thats your goal.

I've also heard of people putting in the clutch when they are fishtailing, once the car is pointed straight, to get out of the fishtail.

You push you clutch and brake in if you are already spinning and have lost control of the car. If you push you clutch in during a fishtail induced from accleration induced traction loss, you will only encourage complete loss of control. You can sometimes "ride out the slide" by neither braking or accelerating if you have enough run off and the turn is generally a long sweeper. You let the car drift down, gain some control, and get back on the gas if the track allows it. This isn't going to be an option coming up on a tight turn on a public road.

I am curious to hear what people think about the approaches to correcting a fishtail that I have listed, and what the experienced drivers around here do in these situations.

I am hardly an expert, but I have been driving my rear engined 911 for over 8 years at DE's along with Skip Barber Race Schools. I can kick my back end around for kicks and grins at any time if I want, but is a blend of acceleration, speed, steering correction, tires and tire heat, and road conditions. If you looking for a drift car, the 911 is not the car you want. Too much rear weight and traction that can easily be lost with the slightest wrong input. If you drive the 911 long enough, these become second nature. Every DE video I watch of me in the car, you can see the endless corrections given at the wheel when the car is at its limits on turns. Thats how 911's drive.

[CharlesJones]

Originally Posted by jorian

Is this a companion post to your "Paint your own car" post? You and your friend sound like you're 16.

So you've never had the misfortune to get caught out and into a fish tail? I have - man, it was terrifying. I didn't know how to control it and it turned into a full blown spin - it was just by the grace of god that I didn't hit anything. I will do what I can to avoid such an accident again, but just in case I get into another such dangerous situation I will be reading this thread with great interest. Not all of us live in a location or have the money where we can nip to a race track and get driving tuition from an expert.

[KFC911]

Although it doesn't snow here very often, and I don't take my "baby" out on salted roads, I used to love a decent snow and a large empty parking lot . "Wet" parking lots would work too...

[masraum]

Usually anything like braking or lifting off of the throttle in a 911 when sliding makes things worse.

You should check these out.

Sports Car and Competition Driving by Paul Frere

Porsche High-Performance Driving Handbook by Vic Elford

Bob Bondurant on High Performance Drivingby Bob Bondurant

Going Faster! Mastering the Art of Race Driving by Carl Lopez and Danny Sullivan

Secrets of Solo Racing: Expert Techniques for Autocrossing and Time Trials by Henry A. Watts

And no, I'm not kidding or being a smart azz. These are good books. The only one that I don't own is Going Faster. I've read them all more than once. Knowledge is good to back up experience.

[masraum]

Originally Posted by jorian

Is this a companion post to your "Paint your own car" post?

Actually, this question isn't necessarily that odd.

Someone new, posts a question about painting a crushed fender and door and then posts about "how do you fix a slide/fishtail?"

Not unreasonable to assume that asking about catching a slide and having some odd ideas about how to go about catching a slide and a reference to a crushed fender could be linked.

I'll leave the age comment out of it.

[Porsche_monkey]

I am considerably older than 16 and enjoy fish-tailing my car. Just sayin'.

Perhaps I'm immature? Or perhaps age and IQ aren't really relevant? Just sayin'.

[T77911S]

Originally Posted by masraum

Actually, this question isn't necessarily that odd.

Someone new, posts a question about painting a crushed fender and door and then posts about "how do you fix a slide/fishtail?"

Not unreasonable to assume that asking about catching a slide and having some odd ideas about how to go about catching a slide and a reference to a crushed fender could be linked.

I'll leave the age comment out of it.

very nice input steve. i hope this is the way it was meant, if not, apologies to what looks like a new member. not sure about the age comment either.

nice job to 89911 for addressing each issue.

[LakeCleElum]

Follow Rob's excellent advise. When I was 16, I was out of bed at 4 AM if it snowed the night before. I was sliding and fish-tailing all over our small town. Sometimes the police followed the tracks right to the service station I worked at - I had to be in a 6:30 to shovel snow before school.....That, and racing go-karts at the age of 13/14 taught me how to slide and fish-tail...Doing it in a Porsche on the street will lead to serious problems......

[afterburn 549]

Jorain,!!!!!!
Is that any way to welcome a new poster ? ( Brotok )
Hell I hope he is 16 and posting here.
He will learn a lot and have a lot to offer in years to come. lets not shut his enthusiasm dwn!
Welcome Brotok.
I go out and practice with my car since I do not have the lux of a trac near by..I might be breaking some law...
Happens about once a minute around here ..fart law..burp law... don't look at the good lookin woman law
Those who want play the don't break the law card ...shut up !!! Go join your Democrat club, bridge club, sell you car and buy a SUV or hybrid or some thing.
a word of caution
Use your head not your testerone
2 - My car at last will Handel one way slow in a sharp turn and an other way fast in a turn...hard to explain.
I usually pick a turn and go back and keep working it, that way I am watching trafic too, and the bears and the mooses
and the school kids ....JOKEING !! I do this out in the boonies. No one to hurt but my self.