Cold weather operations

[old man neri]

I am moving come December and I am taking my 911 with me. I am getting snow tires, I run a 5W40 true synthetic.

What has me worried is starting it in the cold. I do that where I live now but where I am going to gets really cold. Salt is not a concern, they don't often use it because it doesn't work when it gets that cold. I was told it can get as low as -40F/C at night where I will be going. Is there anything wrong with starting the car in those temperatures? Will it ever reach operation temperatures in those conditions?

Also, I have been looking at block heaters and what not. Obviously one cannot use the standard block heater because 911s have no coolant. I have seen these stick on heaters that can be glued to an oil pan. Could I slap one of these on the oil tank? I also saw a neat recirculation pump/heater for coolant. Basically it pumped the coolant and heated it at the same time, do you think one could adapt that for oil in our cars with out making a mess of things? Are there any other heating solutions? I have thought of just getting an electric heater fan and sticking it infront of the fan in the back.

This car will sadly be stored outside, it's not an option to park it in a heated place.

Thanks!
-matt

PS I have an 88.

[Formerly Steve Wilkinson]

When I was operating an airplane in moderately frigid Upstate New York temperatures--air-cooled flat four Lycoming, wet sump--I epoxied a heating pad (obviously designed and STCed for such an installation) to the bottom of the sump. It would turn on at 0400, through a timer, in my hangar and the engine would be toasty by 0900, when I need to go fly.

These sump heaters are widely available through various aviation outlets, and there's no reason you couldn't epoxy one to your oil tank and another to the dry sump to heat the block. Are they safe? As I said, they're STCed, and light airplanes get parked in hangars full of multi-million-dollar bizjets, so they're thermostatically controlled to shut off when a certain temp is reached, and you can be sure they aren't a random fire hazard. Nor are they expensive. Probably $175 apiece these days.

[old man neri]

Thanks Steve.

I was looking at something like this. Is this similar to what you were talking about?

Funny you should mention planes, interestingly enough I am moving to fly planes. They hanger them at night, air cooled flat sixes baby!

-matt

[dshepp806]

-40 is one helluva cold start temp........ouch!

Stephan's notes are most interesting...

Best,

Doyle

[Hugh R]

I have an electric dipstick another Pelican mailed me a few years ago. They don't sell them in SoCal. It will keep the block warm. If you can't find one, I'll gladly pass it on to another Pelican.

PM me if you're interested. I'll even pay the shipping.

[sailchef]

It looks like Hugh R has a great solution.

For what its worth, I grew up in Northern Vermont in the 70's and had several VW bugs. It would drop below -20 to -30 all the time. I built a small wooden box, lined it with tin, nailed in a ceramic light fixture with a 100 watt light bulb. with a long extention cord I sat this guy right under the sump plate and turned it on all night. It kept the back yard lit up and my 4 cyl bug would start every time.

Just a thought.

[Hugh R]

Actually, I'm an idiot. I'm thinking of regular cars. It won't do jack to keep a 911 block warm. Sailchef may have the right idea.

[old man neri]

Originally Posted by Hugh R

Actually, I'm an idiot. I'm thinking of regular cars. It won't do jack to keep a 911 block warm. Sailchef may have the right idea.

You are not an idiot, it will keep the oil warm.

[otto in norway]

Don't worry, be happy!
Just keep a regular oil on it, (Ex. 10W40), and you'll be fine!
I'm actually driving my car at freezing temperature outside, but with 20W50 oil...
Not recomended, but NO problems...
It will run cool, if you don't give it some punishment from time to time. What's cool, is that you actually can feel that the cool air gives you a couple of extra horses...
Go nuts!

[billybek]

At least the A/C will work!!
I remember having a heater on my bugs that was basically a hot plate element that you bolted to the oil strainer plate. No controls on them, though just cooked the oil as long as it was plugged in.
Where are you headed to??

[Formerly Steve Wilkinson]

Matt, that heating pad you're looking at is tiny and, I's say, useless. It's only 75 watts and not internally thermostat-controlled. Go to aircraftspruce.com and look, under "engine heaters" at the E-Z Heat pads--300 watts, thermostatically controlled, come in a wide variety of dimensions depending on installation, $150, proven (i.e. they don't start hangar fires, like the dangling-lightbulb trick has been known to).

One problem is, however, that you'll only be able to use a pad on the oil tank, not the block: unlike a Lycoming or Continental, there is no flat, clean area, which these pads require. You can't glue them to a block that has seams and strengthening ribs, etc.

Otto, you may be in Norway, and I'm sure it gets cold, but Matt isn't talking about "freezing temperature outside," he's talking about -40C. You'd be insane to start an un-preheated engine at this temperature, particularly with 10W40 oil.

[billybek]

Link to VW heater I mentioned earlier.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Zerostart-VOLKSWAGEN-OIL-SUMP-HEATER-8900108-VW-BETTLE_W0QQitemZ250316777267QQcmdZViewItemQQimsxZ2 0081030?IMSfp=TL081030114002r8454

[Gunter]

BTDT.
First off, I wouldn't subject my 911 to a punishing minus 30-40; everything takes a beating: the interior, all rubber seals, the battery.............on and on.
It's all negative: Driving a 911 in snow and ice means that therear end like HE's, CAT, muffler etc. will accumulate all the crap like sand an gravel plus whatever salt.
And you cannot wash it off in sub-zero temps.
It's a no-win situation.
Years of living in Northern BC and in Quebec have tought me valuable lessons about what to do and what not to do with cars in very cold climates.
I would store my 911 and get an older 240-series Volvo: water-cooled 4-cylinders and use a block heater plus a battery warming pad.
Volvos are very reliable, they very good heat and with real winter tires plus extra weight in the trunk have pretty good traction.

Anyway, that's my recommendation: Get a winter-beater; the 240-series Volvos are cheap to buy. Most of them back East already have a block heater installed.

Good luck.

[Canada Kev]

+1 on getting a winter beater. That kind of cold is a lot of punishment to subject on your 911. Sometimes your car will stop when cold during the shift from first to second because the tranny oil is like goo.

That being said it is after all, just a car. OK maybe not JUST a car, but you get my meaning. The temps can get down to -40, but it won't be like that all the time. It will warm up periodically. It can be amazing how absolutely balmy -20 will feel.

Anyway, those heaters on the oil tank, and if you can rig something up, on your block will work. Some other means of additional heating (the light bulb or some other method) would be beneficial. Hell, I've cured JB weld in sub-zero temps with a halogen lamp under a partially cooled hood when in a bind. Perhaps use an electric heater inside your car to assist. Maybe use a piece of cardboard to cover part of your grill on the engine cover unless it reduces airflow enough that it affects proper engine cooling. If that is the case, certainly cover it at night. Warm air rises, and any heat you create in the engine bay will drift away through any opening that it can. When it is -40 out, ANY heat is like a furnace and will rapidly escape. Another thing you might consider is erecting some sort of tent or shelter you could park in. A simple tarp that blocks air movement will have amazing results. Even a light breeze will create huge wind chills when at that low temperature.

BTW, wind chill works on temperature differentials. Or if moisture is present and evaporating. If it is the same temperature as ambient, there is no wind chill. If it is even slightly above, then cooling will take place because of the air flow. That's how your car cools, right?

Anyway, enjoy your nostrils freezing shut. Good luck.

-kevin

[old man neri]

Thank you all.

I do have a winter beater and I plan to use that for the bad days or the short trips. For those who asked I am moving to a place outside of Winnipeg. Portage La Prarie, Mb. I didn't think it got that cold out there but I have heard horror stories. About the -40 thing, I don't think I will be turning the key at -40 but it will be exposed to those temps. I don't plan on driving it every day, only when the sun is out and I feel like cruising. From what I have heard there is no salt used out there.

I have used it in -15F with out any noticeable problems.

[Gunter]

Yep, I remember Winnipeg.
The lake is the problem there because of the wind blowing in from the North; big chill-factor.

Even Santa avoids that area.

You feel sorry for the car just sitting there, never mind running.
I don't use a tarp because it's a trap for moisture; I use several old large comforters over the top in an unheated garage with heating lamps inside.

One 150W bulb in a special little stand I made for the pass. side floor and another 60W bulb resting inside an old frying pan in the trunk to keep the battery happy.
It's surprising how relatively warm the inside is with this set-up.

Being outside, and with the wind blowing, you'd have to strap down whatever you use to cover the car.
IMHO: The most effective way for a heater would be one that attaches right to the case near the sump so that the case, and the ~2 liters of oil in it, are warm.

[spuggy]

Man, you guys are hard core! I feel all studly when I have to squirt something in the locks to de-ice them...

I scoffed at earwarmers once. Until I actually got to upstate NY and experienced -10 for myself. Couldn't get on the plane to Florida fast enough...

[rgrimm]

Originally Posted by old man neri

Thank you all.

I do have a winter beater and I plan to use that for the bad days or the short trips. For those who asked I am moving to a place outside of Winnipeg. Portage La Prarie, Mb. I didn't think it got that cold out there but I have heard horror stories. About the -40 thing, I don't think I will be turning the key at -40 but it will be exposed to those temps. I don't plan on driving it every day, only when the sun is out and I feel like cruising. From what I have heard there is no salt used out there.

I have used it in -15F with out any noticeable problems.

-40F? Possible, but not highly likely. So okay, I'm about 200 miles south, but we consider anytime it gets down to -20 overnight as @%$ cold! Can't remember when it ever got down to -40.

If you're talking about taking it out when the sun is shining and going for a drive, you'll likely be picking days when it's above 0. At that temperature, a 5W40 should allow you to start it right up. Let it idle for a while to get the oil circulating and drive it off slowly until you get some heat built up (idling the car won't do that much good for building up heat so I'd just wait a minute or two and go...just keep the revs down for a bit).

Since you're not going to set the car up for long-term storage, a good battery tender is essential for keeping the battery ready for "those days."

[Canada Kev]

Even in Edmonton we usually get a couple of -40 days each winter, though that is not typical. Now that's celsius, but at -40, they are almost the same as I recall. Certainly cold enough to freeze the nuts off a steel bridge. I don't worry about starting the car in that temp. I just stay indoors. Usually.

[Dai]

At -40 is exactly equal between Celsius and Fahrenheit. I remember driving my car at -45 Celsius and the winter tire had a flat spot which takes a good 5 minutes of driving before it goes away. Also, at the light, you would have to wait for the exhaust from the car in front to cleared before you could proceed. It is no fun to be driving.