1977 911 Purchase help

[stargate823]

Here is what I DO know:

The car is a black 77 with the rear spoiler. According to my dad who knows the guy in possession of it, it has had a rebuilt engine and transmission installed. The car has been sitting in this guys garage for a year with a mechanic's lien on it. Apparently the owner abandoned the car. He is only asking $10000 for it. I only found out about this last night. I couldn't help but swing by the garage on the way home last night and I saw the car in the back of the lot under street lights. Paint looks to be maybe a C or C+. Tan interior looks to be alright. The body seems straight with no dings, dents or damage.

I have read up on the 2.7 engine and I would have to think that if the engine was rebuilt along with the transmission that these issues were addressed. Based on this information so far, how does this price tag sound? I'll be seeing the car and hopefully taking a test drive tomorrow. Also, I am looking to use this as a daily driver. I only put a meager 9000 miles a year on a car. Is this crazy or not?

Thanks for any help before I go get a better look!

[crustychief]

It is very hard to tell a price range without seeing the car. You can get a near perfect late 70"s car for price ranges all over the board 10-35K. Get a PPI ( pre-purchase inspection ) and go from there.

[stargate823]

Well here is the low down as of today.

The asking price is actually 12 grand not 10.

The car has 90000 original miles on it.

The interior is tan leather and worn, but not torn. A new headliner is being installed.

The car seems to be virtually rust free.

There are nicks and the like in the paint from sitting in the shop, but the paint job was done in 1996.

The head studs were done with the inserts.

It does not have the fan update nor the tensioner update. (Can be done cheaply I assume)

The engine rebuild included some nicer cams. :-D

Brand new tires and nice looking Fuchs wheels.

What else should I be looking for here? Does this sound like a deal? Maybe a little high? I'd appreciate any input.

Thanks

[rllevin]

Too high. 12k should get you a nice SC in better condition. Tensioners are not cheap even with you doing the labor. Check the price for a kit on our host's site. I assume by no fan update it still has the 5 blade fan--definitely a big red flag. I wouldn't even spend the money for a ppi. My $.02, of course, but I bought an '86 carrera with 98,000 miles on it for $12,500 two winters ago and I think the market is much softer now for run of the mill drivers. Also now is the time to be buying sports cars. Who else is looking in December?
Good luck and don't jump at the first one you find.
Russell

[stargate823]

Russell,

Thanks for the reply!

My first question in response would be, what WOULD be a fair price based on this information?

I will be asking about the tensioner when I see this guy the next time. He owns his own shop and races 911's so I know he is no amature. However I want to be sure about all the facts. I was with my "less than approving" father so I didn't get in to much detail. I'm no yougin' either, I'm 31 with my own home.

Yes, it still has the 5 blade fan.

I will tell you this much. When I look at value for the dollar what I consider now is a completely rebuilt engine and transmission. If I were to find an SC with 90k on it with a 90k engine how to I compare apples to apples. This is not a defense question merely a statement looking for wisdom. I have no shame in admitting I am a newb and need direction.

Any thoughts?

[afterburn 549]

The eng. is worth NOTHING w.o. paper work to back it up..and done by someone familiar with 911 eng.
I do not think any up dates could be proved w.o. a tear dwn...so the eng. is a stock mag case 911 till proven other wise..
If the shop is so neglectful/disrespectful, as to be knocking paint off the car I would say they are next to crude
If the eng numbers and trany numbers are not for that car..someday it may also act as a price buster.
I would say on the posted account the value is less then low low "book" value w.o. any credence to verify.
I would pay very little for such a car and look else where. There are plenty good ones for sale in the range you have outlined

[davidbir]

Stargate823, it is way overpriced. six months ago I bought a very nice 82 SC in California for $10,500 that is a beauty! Shop around-prices are dropping....964s are going for 15 grand and less.

[stargate823]

Assuming I were to go to this guy and try to make a deal, what WOULD be closer to a fair price? It is a very straight car with a great history. Don;t get me wrong, I'd love a nice early to mis 80's variety, however this car poses an opportunity. Provided that it is what it is, what is a price to aim for? Keep in mind the car has been in his possetion for ayear or more so I do have purchasing leverage.

[rllevin]

I don't know if you can apples to apples a 2.7 and a 3.0 or 3.2 even if, as afterburn 549 said, you have ALL the paperwork and it was done by a reputable shop. The 5 blade fan alone says this ain't so since they were originally designed to force the engine to run hotter to pass emissions and are in part responsible for the pitifully short life of the 2.7s. It should have been replaced 20 years ago and certainly would have been by a rebuilder who cared what happened to his work. Afterburn refers to the stock mag case because later cars have a stronger aluminum case and don't have the headstud pulling issue. Overall, midyear cars (post long-hood, pre SC) are not, shall we say, as well respected compared to earlier and later cars and certainly have much lower values. Yes, I am ready to be flamed by mid-year owners but again, the kind of money you are talking should buy you a much nicer car.
As to the 90,000 mile SC vs. the fresh rebuild on the 2.7, if the SC was cared for it should have another 90,000 miles left in it, given the known idiosyncracies that each type of Porsche has. I should also say that on the other hand I've never understood the high prices some people pay for cars with 120,000 or 150,000 or more miles. There are lots porsches out there and plenty of reasonable ones with less than 100k mile.
Again my 2/100$
Russell

[F18Rep]

BTW... the cam tensioner upgrade package is available today on ebay for $125.

No affiliation yada yada, just a good deal that I had a hard time passing on...Bruce

[stargate823]

I appreciate all of the input. I think I have walked into a hornets nest however with discussion of a 2.7 variety. I grew up with a Fiat background (mostly X 1/9 and 850) so I certainly understand the passion. It would appear that the majority would not touch this car. I have heard that it is over priced and not worth the time. However as with any argument I always like to get both sides. As this has been a one sided discussion I'd like to hear again what price WOULD be fair?

[afterburn 549]

No one here is much into flaming..The mid years are great once you have dumped about 5 Gs of machine work in them and then the rest of the normal stuff..Figure 10 Gs ,if done right and you do most of the grunt work.
Oh you might get away cheaper...you want to EST on the high side.
So the MID years have a bad rep with rights to wear it.............
If you settle on a mid year, just be prepared
Certs, line bore, Cams, re chrome Cyl, new oil pump, oil mod, new head studs of you flavour ECT ECT ECT
BTDT and got the shirt as my sig states.
On the good side ...most the other mid years have been fixed right by now...BUT you need proof or the want to ........to fix it

[stargate823]

Afterburn I appreciae the response.

Since this guy is knowlegeable and does this for a living, I have no problem confronting him with my concerns.

So that said, what aside from the tensioner issue and fan should I be asking him about. I want to be as educated as I can before I even start this deal. I am completely prepared to walk away. So I am just trying to arm myself with as much as I can.

[afterburn 549]

Walked into a hornets nest ?? hardly, we are just having a discussion..pretend we are at Denny's over a cup of coffee or at Cheers....just a discussion
A Fair Price ? will it run? can it be driven?
If not ,in my book it is a roller 4500 bucks.
If the tranny seems to work OK you can add 1500 to that.
Like said..Why get into a emotional fervor over THIS one ?? When so many are available ???...
PS What other side of argument, just facts here..A Mag Case will need a treatment . There is NO exception. That is just the way it is.
And I used to have a X19 Loved the car....but no power

[Grady Clay]

I agree with all above. Put that kind of money toward the nicest 911SC you can find. I suspect you can find very good examples sub-$10K in this market.

If you want to assume the responcibility for a project, buy the '77 at a project-car price. Assume no engine - just a core, maybe. I'll throw out a $3K offer. The worst is he says NO. If yes, you are faced ending up with a '77 911S and 150% of value invested in it.


It is inexcuisable for any builder to send out a quality engine with the 5-blade fan. I suspect you will also find the original thermal-reactor exhaust in place. The combination is an engine-killer.

I'm very suspious of the 'cams' claim. There are not Factory cams that offer more performance without major other changes (cam housings come to mind).

On the positive side a '77 is a galvanized body and it is a 'find' for no rust and no crash damage - if that is the case. Good-but-worn leather is great. How much is leather? It can vary from just seats to the entire interior. Does it have the optional front oil cooler system?

No 911 likes to sit, particularly outside in a lot. Even worse is to be regularly started for a minute to move it. I suspect there will be a myriad of aggrivating problems; brakes, battery, alternator, CIS injection, window lifts, controls, etc.

Best,
Grady

[stargate823]

Fair enough.

Not just a roller. A driver.

Engine is fresh and running within the last 12 months as well as the tranny.

Car is being sold as engine only with "the rest coming for free". Again, this is a mechanics lien sale.

It's not so much that I cannot wait for another car as much as it's could this be a deal not worth passing up if done properly?

[afterburn 549]

Wow You did not listen to Grady ? ( One of our most trusted and knowing Gurus )
No matter how you "list" the car it is way Over priced !!..Unless there is paper to prooooove it !! We are truly trying to help you here.
Sit dwn take a breath, you will not see anyone beating dwn the door to buy this. ( If they did there are plenty more for sale )
This story will have a bad ending
If you do not change your course you are likely to end up where you are headed

[stargate823]

I appreciate all the information I have gotten from all of you. I will take this to heart and use it when I talk to the guy seriously. I do understand that the engine issues are the most important. The body on the car is great. The interior could use a little TLC but not much more. It's all down to the engine and trans. Let's see what he has to say after being armed with all of this info... However I still (aside from the very very low lowball) have not gotten an idea of a fair offer on THIS car.

[Grady Clay]

I guess it best to start with documentation.
If the seller built the engine & trans, then there should be documentation of what was done and what new parts installed.

I would be concerned that there was only cylinder stud inserts and some sort of valve and head work. What are the cylinders - Nikasil or Alusil? Bearings, rod nuts & bolts, jackshaft bearings, rings, etc. Cooler cleaned? Was case repaired -align bore? Were the cylinder spigots faced?

What was done in the transmission?

All new clutch parts?


I think the opinion many are trying to convey is it is very easy to 'get in over your head' with a car like this. That means having much more invested than the sale value of the car. Many of us do just that - intensionally for a car we intend to keep forever.

A clue here is an owner walked from paying his bill on the car. Was it because he simply didn't have the money or was it he saw it as "throwing good money after bad" and ending up with twice the value of the car invested in it?

An asking price of $12K is way out of range. That is not to say his bill on repairing the engine & trans isn't exactly that.

Tread carefully.

Best,
Grady

[Tallbrad]

it's worth maybe 5k if he gives you a written 6 month warranty on engine and trans.. offer it and walk away, maybe your phone will ring. any rust at all run away fast..