996/986 M49 engines - time bomb?

[356six]

This months issue of Excellence has an article regarding the "problems" & fixes for the M49 engines. I know all generations have the issues, but after reading this I don't know if I'd jump on a 996 without documentation that it has a replacement engine already installed. Maybe it's just my take on the article, but it sounds like this engine in it's original factory form is a time bomb. It's unfortunate as the price of the 996 cars is at or below the 964 & 993 cars.

I was leaning towards buying a 996 early next year, but now I may go back to looking for a nice 993 (& probably have to pay more)

[Elombard]

I dont know it looks like its pretty easy to buy a used replacement for $5K from the breakers (I have not researched it heavily). I would definitely be prepared to replace the motor if I buy one. Cheap as they are not too big a deal.

I was surprised in the article how much attention was given to oiling in the engine design, I was under the mistaken impression that they were terrible on the track because the factory had designed a street wet sump system paying no attention to any potential track use. They do have issues apparently but the factory did put lots of time into the oiling, scavenge pumps in the heads etc. Some folks are suggesting that a "simple" off the shelf add on pressure system and reservoir (I cant think of the name) will solve the starvation issues.

I would love to buy a 996 that had one of the LN Engineering or there partners replacement engines already installed!!!

One other thing I noticed was the guys that are working on the rebuilding did not address the rear main seal leak issue in all of there "fixes". Seemed like a glaring omission

BTW I hope if you get a late 993 you dont have any problems with clogged air injection ports in the heads :-0

[exc911ence]

Originally Posted by Elombard

*snip* Some folks are suggesting that a "simple" off the shelf add on pressure system and reservoir (I cant think of the name) will solve the starvation issues.

*snip*

Is this what you're thinking of?

http://www.accusump.com/

[356six]

I would love to buy a 996 that had one of the LN Engineering or there partners replacement engines already installed!!!

If Jake Raby & LN Engineering put together a M49 engine package like they've done in the past with aircooled Porsche & VW engines, I'm sure it will be one hell of an engine. But if you can buy a replacement for 5K, which seems very cheap, they've got their work cut out for them.

[Elombard]

Yes Accusump.

Well its apples to oranges, the $5k motor might have 80K miles and be an unknown quantity where as the $11K + Raby motors sound like they are bullet proof and a known entity. So you would need to weigh priorities carefully and look at the warranty from a breaker.

FWIW its M96 not M49.

[NOTASIX]

Originally Posted by Elombard

Yes Accusump.

Well its apples to oranges, the $5k motor might have 80K miles and be an unknown quantity where as the $11K + Raby motors sound like they are bullet proof and a known entity. So you would need to weigh priorities carefully and look at the warranty from a breaker.

FWIW its M96 not M49.

Our intent is to NOT cut corners like the Manufacturer did, that ended up creating the reliability issues with the engine.

The only way to effectively address these issues is with an expenditure of cash for components that are grossly overbuilt and more resilient to failure. The M96 issues are not design flaws, they were application flaws.

When we update an engine ALL the areas of concern are addressed including cylinders, IMS, oil system and etc. This includes a new set of forged pistons that are specifically designed for the Nickies cylinder upgrade and have been proven for the past 12 years in air and watercooled applications.

If someone is building a 5K buck engine, our program has nothing to worry about because the engine will be just as problematic as the Porsche version and the company will soon fail.

Our overall goal is to empower the independent Porsche technician with the ability to work on these engines and rebuild them within the confines of their own shops. We have implemented a training program, tool program and several other sub-programs that will accomplish this. I just finished a 4,000 square foot addition to my facility and the entire upstairs of this facility is dedicated to classroom space to support the training efforts.

My specialty is bthe creation of updated, higher performance engines based from the M96 platform, the stock engines are much better left to local independent shops and those are the people that we want to train how to use our components, tools and etc.

Yes, we have been VERY successful with the program already, and we just released our efforts to the public early in 2008, 3.5 years before that all of this started, behind closed doors.

[Elombard]

Hey Jake awesome that you are here.

Just to be clear the $5k motors refers to used un-rebuilt motors that I have seen once or twice advertised by wrecking yards or private individuals parting out the cars.

So you would end up with a motor with all of the same problems.

Jake if you have time can you talk about RMS leaks and how you address them (or dont) in your builds?

[NOTASIX]

The RMS issues are generally leaky IMS bearing housings that appear to be the RMS.

We use the newest, most updated Porsche seal in all builds and have not had any issues...

In fact, thats one of the only Porsche parts we buy for our engines :-)

I heard of one mass producer that was selling M96 engines for a dirt floor price with no upgrades... They also don't have much of a reputation with their past endeavors, so I expect this one will probably be the grand finale for them.

[Elombard]

Wow - good stuff.

Jake I am local do you have a car I can run for you as a test mule :-)

[NOTASIX]

No, but you can come see us after the first of the year when the new facility opens :-)

[gtc]

Go to autotrader.com and do a search for 996s/Boxsters. What's the highest mileage you see?
The answers are telling.

[Elombard]

Jake you can count on it. I intend to be a customer soon.

[356six]

M49- M96....my mistake. Late night reading.

Jake it's good to see you on the board. I had to re-read the article to make sure it was the same Jake Raby. I was suprised to see you stepping into the water cooled world. Looks like you're going to have another killer engine kit. Best of luck.

[Doug&Julie]

Originally Posted by gtc

Go to autotrader.com and do a search for 996s/Boxsters. What's the highest mileage you see?
The answers are telling.

Purely out of curiosity (and boredom), I did this. Within 500 miles of Cinci, OH. Here's a list of those close to or over 100k...

99 Box - 110k
99 Box - 130k
99 Box - 99k
01 BoxS - 101k
01 Box - 93k
00 911 - 90k
99 911 - 91k
97 Box - 151k
99 Box - 102k
01 Box - 117k
99 Box - 108k
97 Box - 97k
99 Box - 119k
99 Box - 91k
98 Box - 101k
00 Box - 105k
99 Box - 96k
01 Box - 95k
00 Box - 91k
98 Box - 95k
99 911 - 96k
99 911 - 95k
99 911 - 102k
99 911 - 97k
99 911 - 97k
99 911 - 93k
99 911 - 98k
99 911 - 99k
02 911 - 122k
00 911 - 92k
99 911 - 116k
98 Box - 120k
97 Box - 106k

I think the lowest ones I saw were a Boxster with 8k miles and a 911 with 2k miles. There were 983 listings. Most were Boxsters in the 50 - 70k range. (I only searched for 1997 - 2002 Porsches). I did not read the ads but nothing jumped out at me as "blown motor", etc.

Not sure what this says. Guess it just gave me something to do...

[Zeke]

Raby and LN engineering have done their homework for sure. I talked to Charles Navaro (the 'N' in LN) at Ventura in depth about the M94 motor and its shortcomings. It was bound to happen that someone was going to step up to the aftermarket plate and offer parts. What we got was not only parts, but development as well. Nothing different than what has gone on for many, many years on the aircooled 4-cyl stuff.

Personally, I think if you don't flog these motors, they will go on for a good distance. YMMV (literally )

[356six]

I guess what made me post this in the first place was I'm looking for a newer P-car that I can use as a reliable daily driver (when it's not snowing here). The 996 cars seem to fit my requirements (amenities for a daily & price), but then I see a major potential problem. Are these issues that can be detected in PPI? Am I rolling the dice on a low mileage car or get one with a factory replacement already installed. (then start saving my pennies for a Raby upgrade! - yeah the wife will love that)

[Doug&Julie]

Originally Posted by 356six

Are these issues that can be detected in PPI?

I don't think so. But a PPI is still a must.

Seems to be (and I think Jake can back this up with his research) your best bet would be to find a car that's been used but not abused. One with oil changes more frequent than the 15k suggested by Porsche. More than likely you'll be able to use it for some time before you need to call Jake. But save up just in case.

[Milu]

Originally Posted by Doug&Julie

Purely out of curiosity (and boredom), I did this. Within 500 miles of Cinci, OH. Here's a list of those close to or over 100k...



I think the lowest ones I saw were a Boxster with 8k miles and a 911 with 2k miles. There were 983 listings. Most were Boxsters in the 50 - 70k range. (I only searched for 1997 - 2002 Porsches). I did not read the ads but nothing jumped out at me as "blown motor", etc.

Not sure what this says. Guess it just gave me something to do...

I think the point was that one doesn't seem to see (200k+) 996s or Boxsters. I may be worryingly needlessly about it but it was enough to sway me towards a 993 for my next dd.

[Won]

I recently looked into these "issues" as well. It appears that there were indeed weak spots by design which they improved over time, a lot of little details that the factory addressed over the years. This page: http://www.renntech.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=6470&st=0 is where I began and I ended up finding 4 PDF articles on these engines, 3 from magazines (Excellence, 911 and Porsche World, Total 911). Can't remember exactly where I saw the links but that should be a good starting point.

[NOTASIX]

Actually well used and even heavily abused vehicles are those that have ess engine failures...