What would he say about 911s ...

[Decolliber]

The following is an excerpt from an article in today's WSJ about Firestone requesting an investigation of the Ford Explorer's oversteer handling:

Firestone, a unit of Japan's Bridgestone Corp., provided the NHTSA with the analysis, conducted by Dennis A. Guenther, professor of mechanical engineering at Ohio State University.

Based on his initial findings, Mr. Guenther said he believes the Explorers as tested are "defectively designed" because they don't provide an adequate margin of safety to permit control by average drivers. "An oversteer vehicle is not safe at highway speeds in the hands of an average driver," he reported.

[Nickshu]

Well...911's aren't grossly top heavy, so they've got that going for them.

But I can't wait to witness the public torture and death of the SUV.

Where the heck was Ralph Nader when this country REALLY needed him???? He could have made tons of money (and saved alot of lives too) by crusading against SUV's rather than Corvairs!

Nick

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_ _ __ _ _
Nick Shumaker
1982 911SC Coupe
nickshu@yahoo.com
PCA -- Rocky Mtn. Region

[Jdub]

SUV sales are rapidly on the decline, thank God. Folks are moving to the more practical small-utes that actually handle and get decent gas mileage.

At first, it was a Big Ego massage to ask a bank to finance your SUV so you could impress, well, whomever you thought would be impressed. Now, like an albatross around the neck, these folks are upside-down on their loans and all they have to show for it is a huge gasoline bill, the disdain of everyone else for their gas-guzzling ways, and a truck that handles like the old delivery truck I was forced to drive at My Worst Job.

Whew! Vented! But wait folks: the tradeins of these effluent vehicles will trickle them down to folks who will get them for a song. They are never going to go away in our lifetimes---they will all need to be driven into the ground before we will be rid of them.

Yuck!
Jw

[Pillow]

Maybe we need to improve the "average driver".

Most drivers on the road could not handle any emergency situation in a regular sedan much less handle a large truck-brick that handles much worse... While talking on the damn cell phone at the same time of course.

Nick you are on the money man. Nader missed his second calling.

This whole Explorer / Firestone thing is bunch of BS IMHO. Just crappy drivers. Car & Driver has done a few articles on this subject sating the same thing.

Also those small SUVs are a joke. Why do I want a jacked up Carolla or Civic? You now have a compact SUV... Just get the Carolla wagon or Jetta wagon. Like you have ever heard "Wow, look at that tough guy in that butch RAV4!" LOL



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Adrian Pillow
1979 911 SC
1966 VW Microbus
PCA - Peachstate Region

[Nickshu]

I'll vouch for the plummeting prices.

I (hate to admit this) have always wanted to own a Classic (87-95) Range Rover. I can justify this because I know that RR (at least the classic ones) was built as a true off-road vehicle, so I guess I don't classify it as the drive-to-the-mall type of SUV.

Anyway I've been looking lately at dealer auctions thru a buddy who has a dealer license. You can buy a 95 RR County LWB with about 55-60K on the odometer for around $6000-8000!!! This car was $55,000 6 years ago. Crazy.

But I know...y'all probably think I'm crazy to want something with British Lucas electrics. But I figure I can do all the work myself and just have fun with the car.

Nick.

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_ _ __ _ _
Nick Shumaker
1982 911SC Coupe
nickshu@yahoo.com
PCA -- Rocky Mtn. Region

[jeff91C2T]

Interesting article...just thought I'd add my two cents. I took a vehicle dynamics class from Guenther. Awsome class/professor....probably the best one I took while at Ohio State. If I remember right, Guenther's specialty was tires. I remember him talking about his testifying in many court cases. As much as I liked him, I'd consider his opinion a little biased.

"It's the vehicles fault, not the tires."....that'll be $10,000 please.

[epbrown]

What is the deal with Lucas electrical systems? It seems that British car enthusiasts swear by them while everyone else loathes them. I haven't had a problem with my Silver Shadow, nor do the owner records indicate the PO ran into trouble. But outside the RROC mailing list or other Brit-car forums, it's roundly despised. What's this based on?

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"Everybody wants a normal life and a cool car;
most people settle for the car." Chris Titus
1983 911 SC Targa
1966 Rolls-Royce Silver Shadow

[jbailey930]

Nick
Right on with RR. Once I cleaned up the garage and driveway leaks from the 911's, I moved on to the British equivalent. The RR is truly the only capable offroad 4 door vehicle (what is the line: Best 4x4 by far). I don't think you could consider it an SUV as say an Explorer or Tahoe. Anyway good luck finding one. Out in CO there is the Solihul Society (local chapter for LR's). Check them out. There are similar BBS's for Rover's, but not as comprehensive as our hosts.
John
79 930
97 RR 4.0

[Nick L]

An Explorer is an "oversteer" vehicle?

That seems odd. Every Explorer that I've ever driven understeers like crazy.

[campbellcj]

The oversteer comment strikes me as odd too. Don't think I've ever driven an American car that had a strong oversteering tendancy!

I thought that one of the main 'explanations' for the Firestore/Explorer problem was also gross underinflation. A lot of dumb-ass drivers probably never check their tire pressures, and could be driving around with 40psi on one side and 14psi on the other side.

[Planter91C2]

i can't understand why you guys are so anti-suv? unless its a california thing or something? I have had a grand cherokee for about five years now and it has been great. winter driving(Buffalo), hauling stuff, pulling a boat, packing for weekend trips, offroad, hunting/fishing (try tying more than 2 deer to a geo metro). try carrying 8 bags of mulch on a very gas efficient puch moped.

minivans i can understand hating, they are always driven by dumbasses.



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Daryl 964 Targa

[Jdub]

The Lucas thing is a love-hate among the Brit car bunch as well. Basically it is the bullet connectors and monkey-metal makeup of ground tabs, and the misuse (or misunderstanding) of fuses and fuse ratings between Brit cars and others. Also overloading of wires.

Plus, the Brit car grew up in the wettest country on earth, and so earned a somewhat underserved rep. for operation due to excessive corrosion.

Or maybe the smoke has escaped from the wires...

Jw

[Nickshu]

I guess we don't hate SUV's, but your point about the minivan is well taken. The minivan crowd of the 80's moved into SUV's in the 90's.

I live in Colorado...the land of the unnecessary SUV. I guess I just dislike the stereotypical SUV because its driven by 5'1" moms, talking on a cell phone and checking every curb in sight. Not to mension swinging those huge doors open in overfilled parking spaces right into the sides of my cars.

Plus here in CO...all the testosterone junkies talk about how great their SUV's are, but when you drive in the snow you never see anything stuck in the ditch but SUV's. I just think their so-called marketed "capabiliites" are the most over-rated marketing hoax that has ever been played on the American public (aside from tons of room to store stuff).

Nick.

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_ _ __ _ _
Nick Shumaker
1982 911SC Coupe
nickshu@yahoo.com
PCA -- Rocky Mtn. Region

[campbellcj]

OK, in the full context of the article I guess the oversteering statement makes sense: this is AFTER the rear tire has had a catastrophic blow-out / separation!

From today's WSJ:

In lobbying for an investigation, Firestone said a new analysis showed certain models of Explorers will experience an "oversteer" condition in most circumstances following a tread separation on a left rear tire. The rear tire is significant because a large percentage of tires that have failed on Explorers, resulting in deadly rollovers, were rear ones.

In a letter to L. Robert Shelton, the NHTSA's acting administrator, Firestone Chief Executive John Lampe said the vehicle and tire are an "integrated system" and must be looked at together. "What affects one, affects the other. We ask NHTSA to investigate to determine the cause of the serious safety issue with a substantial segment of Ford Explorers and to take the necessary steps to remedy the potential defect so as to protect motor vehicle safety," he wrote.

"Oversteer" is a cornering condition in which the front of a vehicle turns more sharply than the driver intends during a turn, while the vehicle's rear skids around. A vehicle that oversteers is increasingly difficult to control as speed increases, according to the Firestone study.

[wckrause]

"minivans i can understand hating, they are always driven by dumbasses."

Seems like every plus you mentioned about your Cherokee also applies to my Ford Windstar. So what exactly makes me a dumbass? The fact that I didn't buy a piece of crap Chrysler product?

BTW, sliding doors never cause parking lot dings.

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Bill Krause
'79 911SC Euro

[firecall999]

How about the Mercedes A-class that had a tendancy to roll over when steared through a slalom course. I believe they called it the reindeer test of something. i.e. simulating swerving to avoid someting in the road.

Audi also added a spoiler to the back of the TT because it had a overstear problems and caused a few accidents.

I guess people expect car manufacturers to fully test cars in all situtations. And we are led to believe they do. But it is clear that they do not.
The marketing they dish out sugests that virtually all new cars are the safest ever and continue to be so under extreme conditions. Well this just aint so.
I think its about time manufacturers were made more accountable for the claims they make.

Alex.

[CamB]

Originally posted by Jdub:
The Lucas thing is a love-hate among the Brit car bunch as well.

Well, my Lucas story for the weekend - I washed the body and engine on my '78 Jaguar on the weekend and drove it back in the garage. As I was contemplating waxing it, I noticed smoke coming from under the hood.

Popped it open, blew out the candle sized flame around a shorted relay, said a quick prayer and unbolted the battery before it lit back up again.

And made a mental note. Lucas relays are probably not waterproof.

Cam

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Cameron Baudinet
1975 911S

[This message has been edited by CamB (edited 06-04-2001).]