"Time running out on the development of the 911..."
 

Watching the Sebring 12 hour race I heard one of the announcers mention "a little birdy told me" that there may be something new coming from Porsche, hinting that the 911 has reached the "end of it's development". He said "not today, not tomorrow, but possibly in a year or two". He failed to elaborate...does anybody know anything about this? Is Porsche giving up on the rear engined layout? ..or are they talking about a V8 "911"? All speculation on my part, FWIW. The only other thing they added was "remember, you heard it here first!"

sounds intriguing doug!
ruf are going retro look and electric so.... ...do you think its electric 911s from now? that will be so disappointing. :(


http://jalopnik.com/tag/ruf-eruf-greenster/?id=5163747

http://cache.gawker.com/assets/image...uf-topshot.jpg

Umm..I had to look at the post date for this thread because for a second I thought it was 1978. Remember how the 928 was going to replace the 911?

My guess is that Porsche will continue making a rear engined 2+2 with a sloping back for many years to come. As long as they will be building cars I reckon. They may not always be internal combustion engine powered, that much may be true, but I'll be very surprised if the gave up the concept completely.

It's kind of like if you had a goose which laid eggs made of gold. You'd take care of that goose wouldn't you? Same with Porsche, except the goose is the 911, and the golden eggs are like...well you get the picture.

If we're talking about tradition and production / sales, I agree with you. But lets face it, the 911 hasn't exactly been dominating the racing world the past couple of years. It would be a sad day, but...maybe Porsche has finally realized the shortcomings of the rear engined layout for racing?

With the Panamera just coming out, I don't think the 911 in it's various forms is going to leave us in 2 years.

What could be a strange development in the somewhat distant years would follow the fate of the VW beetle. Now, it's back and selling well. Can you imagine the 911 revisited as a 2025 model after several years of no production? Well, I'd be nearly 80 YO in 2025, so whether I ever saw such a thing or not, it would all be moot.

So, go ahead Porsche, do whatever you want, I won't be a taker anyway. I'll bet I'm not alone it that.

Seems like it did "OK" in the ALMS last year....

Again, I got the impression they were talking about the racing 911, not the production of the street 911 (or any other Porsche for that matter).

They need to look at a modern version of the 914 - cheaper, more economical, 2-seat, light, quick, agile. There's a market for that. I read somewhere that they'd looked at this a few years ago and then abandoned the idea for whatever reason (probably a market obsessed with gas-guzzling pig-like SUVs for the last few years). However as the economy limps along and gas prices continue to climb, I doubt there will be huge demand for $130,000 911s. A few will sell for sure, but they need to make up for the lost Cayenne sales, which are in the toilet right now. I wouldn't be the least bit surprised to see some sort of small, more "entry-level" Porsche come along. It has historically worked well for the company looking to boost sales and increase brand loyalty (think 914, 944, Boxster, etc.)

The Boxster is getting played out and will probably need to be replaced or given a major facelift soon.

Just. Beaten by Ferraris two years previous. Beaten by Ferrari in 2008 Le Mans. Beaten by Mazda in the 2008 24 at Daytona...and fourth place in the championship (second place in the manufacturers championship) in 2008. To add insult to injury, didn't Risi used to be a Porsche team? (..or am I thinking of somebody else?) How about Rahal? Didn't I read there are only (2) GT2 Porsches at Le Mans this year? So far some turn around for this year with the new car, but they are losing at Sebring.

Time to be setting your goals higher than "OK"...

There's no doubt the bar is raised. But, nonetheless, FLMS won ALMS last year. Pat Long was one of the winning team in 2007 in a 911 @ Le Mans.

I think it is all great racing.

The 911's dominated Sebring qualifying, so the pace is there. Jorg had a bit of bad luck on lap 4, so who knows what the outcome MAY have been @ Sebring this year?

Oh, need I mention the Rolex @ Daytona this year? ;)

Last year at a local race shop I saw they had retrofit a gt3rs 911 motor into a boxter with great success and were talking about setting up some caymans that way. With the performance potential of a configuration like that, i could see porsche transitioning into a new strategy with the cayman at the forefront for racing. That would step things up for them and much of the technology is already there. the only downside is the detriment to the 911 "brand".

Porsche is slowly becoming all about the Boxster and the Cayman.

Sales are such that they are not afraid anymore to step on the toes of the 911; they are finally increasing the engine displacement of the mid engine vehicles to levels that can rival the 911 in performance. Something that they have always shied away from in past secondary models.

If the economy takes years to recover, Porsche will have no other option to let the $100,000 911 take a back seat to the $40,000 to $60,000 little brothers.

Frankly, I think the Boxster and Cayman S models are a lot more intriguing than the 911 models. Excluding the GT models, of course.

Porsche is slowly becoming all about the Boxster and the Coxster.

Later,
Craig

Also why is it that the Daytona prototypes are not in ALMS this year?

Because they race in a different series?

Doug , I saw that report and thought the same thing - that he was suggesting the 911 had reached the end of it's racing development. It is possible that this is the case, but reading what the head of R&D at Porsche had to say last month in Excellence, doubtful.

I have been thinking that an artfully stretched Cayman/Boxster that allowed for a flat-8 and a marketing friendly back seat would be a nice evolution.

Porsche Racing R&D guy was interviewed in Excellence a month or two back and he said that "by their calculations" the 911 (rear engined) can still be competitive for years to come. He also said that a mid-engined 911 would be doable. Kind of left things slightly open...

Porsche brags that their company is the only auto maker where the racing department is owned by R&D and not marketing. Obviously for marketing purposes, it makes sense to continue with the 911. We will see what wins out.

Also keep in mind that the sanctioning bodies have a play here - i.e. they can give 911s breaks on weight rules in order to keep them competitive.

My guess is they will stay with the rear engine configuration and continue to inch up (towards the front) the engine year by year like they have been...

Wouldn't it be great if there something in Porsche's stable of cars with a mid-mounted engine, light weight, PDK/sequential gearbox and a limited slip diff to go up against the Ferrarai 430's?

Wait a minute, this might sound cazy but,.....what about a Cayman 3.8 RSR?

:rolleyes:

Panoz just put Flying Lizard 45 into the wall going for third place. There that goes...

That was my thought, an 8 cyl mid engine competitor for the Ferrari. With the stretch, you get space for a sunroof in the hardtop. Keep the Boxster/Cayman, maybe even move them downmarket with the removal of some fluff that can go into the new 911/8, 918, M911, or whatever other good name they can come up with.

8 cyl mid engine same basic body is my bet

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1237691288.jpg "Does dis schtie make me look like a flaming Dumkoph, Weideking???'

Full interview here from Drivers Republic http://www.drivers-republic.com/first_look/news/details.cfm?articleid=1a74aea7d0c540f6a71412c7eb72 f2dc&page=1

"WD: A little bit of a business background to this answer. The 911 is the backbone of our racing department but is also the backbone of the company and it defines Porsche. It also has the highest price level and the highest margins, and we like this situation and we want to keep it in the future. For that reason we keep the 911 as the basis of our racing programme. Yes the Cayman has enormous potential (sic) - it would make a very fast lap time, but we won’t do it because it would double our work in the racing department, and we have only 135 people running the whole GT road car programme and the factory race programme."

OF Course, any mention of racing must be prefaced by business.

Helllloooo, McFly!!!!! Have u taken a look at race results from anywhere but your desk?? Do u even know the way to the Weissach test track any more than Weedking does??

God forbid that one of the most PROFITABLE car companies on the planet (that would not even exist except for motor racing) should actually have to put more money into it's currently emasculated program.

Without some serious redevelopment and R/D, which the company formerly known as 'Porsche' doesnt seem likely to give it, the 911 looks to become less and less competitive.

The tone of the article confirms that the testosterone has finally left Stuttgart altogether:

WD "Maybe we don’t need cars that go beyond 300km/h?"

How did it come to this?

Ok, i am going to drive home from work in the morning in my 550hp 930, and i will feel much better.

I guess you'll be applying for CEO position when Wendelin retires?

Yes Doug, I was struck by the same comment. I got the sense that maybe he was alluding to an 8 cyl motor. Maybe the new car would be mid-engined? Maybe it would not be marketed as a "911" at all?

It has been quite a long run for the 2+2, 6 cyl, rear engine Porsche. Perhaps the end really is in sight...

I for one hope the "new" Porsche is amazing. Then, maybe prices on the GT3 will drop low enough for me to buy one when I am ready to retire.

Mike

guys Porsche is not even making the bulk of its money from manufacturing anymore - it is effectively a big hedge fund...check this documentary out (I saw it in London about 6 weeks ago when I was there on business):

http://www.mininova.org/tor/2219795

article here:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/7843262.stm

I might make this a new thread as it is bound to get some interest...

It was a good play by Porsche to raise their stake in VW. I doubt that they will be making similar deals in the future; at the end of the day they are still more like Henry Ford, than Henry Madoff.

Interesting article/video though.

Craig

I think they are going to go in the opposite direction - smaller 6 cylinder engines with light-pressure turbos for better gas mileage. They have to meet the ever increasing CO2 targets. There is already talk of a 4 cylinder boxster. Look at Ferrari's new millichelli or whatever its called. The new thing to spend money on will be efficient powertrains and light weight...

Put a damn turbo back in the racing series...enough of the naturally aspirated crap.

HISTORY HAS SHOWN that the turbo is what has made the brand what it is, the 934, 935, 917/30, 962, 993tt etc. etc. et-f'in'-cetra...

That's what they need to put some distance between the competition and their rear bumper.

NA racers have always gotten attention - Turbo cars have always made history.

I'll remove my vote for the 8 if they do a lightweight 6. Maybe the '911' version could be the turbo and the boxster version could be NA, or a 4. Adding lightness would be very good.

+1
I've been saying the same thing for years. If Lotus can make the Elise and sell them like hotcakes, why can't Porsche? I've always believed that Porsche should build an entry-level car and I don't count a base Cayman at $50k without any options as an entry-level car. They need a stripped down version starting at $40k with the only options being power and/or handling. Leave all the leather-cladded techno stuff out....just make it a pure driver's car. That way you have college aged people being able to afford a Porsche and when they get to their corporate jobs, they'll be able to afford a lot more...hence the 911. I think Porsche is afraid that if they leave all the gee-whiz stuff out, they'll lose market share.

Anyways....just my 2 cents.

My bet is a version of the TDI, Porsche style. The development of the gasoline engine has hit the ceiling, the turbo diesel is just leaving the floor development wise. Continental Aircraft Engine is developing an opposed turbo diesel for G/A airplanes, diesel is the ROW fuel choice and a natural for Green operations. Audi has proven the R15 is a viable engine series and will continue to advance the development, who is Audi's parent company? At the basic design level for engine power production is BMEP. The most basic turbo diesel has far more power potential than the most advanced gasoline engine. As soon as the industry advances the development of the diesel in terms of weight reduction and increasing RPM potential the diesel will replace the gasoline engine, placing it on the shelf next to the steam engine.
Hola
eric

I have to apologize as I wasn't intending this thread to bring out any hatred (including my own).

If we're voting, I like the idea of a turbo charged mid-engined racer. To me Porsche's flat six motor is still very much part of Porsche heritage, and I think that could be the best balance for high hp and maximum efficiency. Not to mention lower weight.

All of us oldtimers prefer lightweight high efficiency small motors in simple cars. But the new cars must have so much crap on them to be accepted in the broad market place that it may no longer be possible. EG I have a C32 AMG, a small displacement motor, savage power (supercharged), perfect balance. It was replaced in the new version by a 6.3 liter V8. To me the opposite of what should have been done. By the way it is much quicker than my 964 3.3 Turbo.

Here's a related quotation.
 

"The writing it would seem is on the wall. And what is written is that the venerable and venerated 911 is in the twilight of its years. ... It's difficult to see the demand or the car lasting more than a couple more years. ... The 911 is as good as it can be made".

This was the opinion voiced by a writer in Road and Track. What is interesting to note is that this is an article in the August 1980 issue of Road and Track.

I bring this up for one reason, announcers or magazine writers for that matter don't have a clue, but if they say it long enough eventually it might happen, but it's been 30 years and it ain't happened yet.

I was able to place my hand on this article because I had recently showed it to a friend (Corvette owner) that made a similar statement. The look on his face was priceless. :D