Gunter: Don't forget his car was also missing gaskets on the intake runners.

I'm pretty sure that by fixing both the hole and the intake runners his car will run again.

Attention All Somatic Realistic Optimists:

Some of the engine data has been published, but I'll try to assemble everything I have tomorrow and put it here. I don't know if all data is going to be available. This is the best time in recent memory to do this since I have things apart.

I'll try to be brief as I wouldn't want to take valuable web space away from the latest posting of such technical issues as "Hey, look how funny a 911 looks when it is shortened by a photo program!" or "I wonder how big I can get my head in a shot taken in front of my car?" ;)

Actually, Gunter and others, I DO appreciate the input, and if posting some engine data helps move things along, then I'll be glad to do it.

You'll be fine........
 

Paul,

Correct the air leak/s and install a working WUR, you'll be in the road in two weeks. A JB Weld will save your aluminum line from taking unmetered air and don't forget the gasket/s (just kidding).

Your WUR could be tested without running the car. Shoot for 1.5 bar (cold) to 3.5 bar (warm) and stop messing the air mixture. A properly set air mixture (mechanical) will be good and will stay good for a very long time unless you have unmetered air going into the system. Keep us posted of the progress and wish you the best.

Tony

Thanks, Tony. I've got new gaskets, JB Weld, Simple green and vac hose ready to go. Porsche_Monkey will probably be coming by Tues morning, so if all goes well, I should be back in business well before 2 weeks.

I'm glad we found that both air leak in the line and the missing gaskets. At least they seem likely candidates. We'll know soon enough.

Mark87930 has agreed to loan me his AF meter again, so I can set that mixture screw and forget it!

I don't know about that Gunter, though. He wants to know an awful lot about what's in my engine compartment. It's kinda scary. Wonder what he's thinking...

Paul,

Once you have everything installed and repaired I'd find someone with a smoke machine just to be certain. Does not cost much to smoke the intake (about $40.00) here in RI. Well worth the money.

No intake gaskets? Wow :eek: That is scary.
All tests for AFR were NFG; scrap all pages and start new. :D

I am thinking like an Engineer. :)

Like: are the CIS parts compatible to each other?
To know what mods/changes have been made would of helped to find some solutions.

What's the mistery? :confused:

The numbers of FD, WUR, AAR, AAV and distributor are right on the parts and tell the story without guessing.
And the engine type is easily found.

The length of all your threads could have been cut drastically by posting clearly what kind of mix-match you have to avoid unnecessary guesswork.
Of course, nobody could have guessed about the missing gaskets.

So, what exactly do you have?
Engine? (Type)
Crank? (Stroke)
P/C's? (95mm or 98mm?)
FD?
WUR?
AAR?
AAV?
Distributor?

I remember asking you the above a long time ago without success.

The board is here to help people with problems and to learn about solutions. That includes learning about possible improvements and modifications. No need for secrecy. SmileWavy

I think it's funny looking at your avatar and thinking that it's actually Rocky the Flying Squirrel saying this about the grumpy old bird...

But I imagine he is thinking a lot like the rest of us... HTF is the F'n Squirrel gonna get all the crap to work?

I have faith and hope, I think the manifold gaskets alone will work miracles. SmileWavy

Gunter,

Sorry if it seemed like I was being secretive, or otherwise ignoring you. Ii was merely my weary old bones being reluctant to go out into my freezing garage over the winter! That and one other thing which I'll get to. Here's the data I have as of now:

Engine: 6403966, so 80SC 3.0L US/Canada
AAR: 0289140218, 80-83SC
WUR: 1438140045, 78/79 SC
Fuel Diz: 0438100031: 78/79 SC
Distrib: 0231184001: 74-77S c/w revised gear to reverse rotation to match SC spec

I haven't found a number for the AAV yet.

Now the hard/interesting(?) part: The engine was rebuilt about 20 yr ago by Rudy Bartling. Google him. He was racing Porsches @ Mosport in the early 60s! He is 73 now and a little shaky on the phone, so I have deputized a good friend of his to ask about the Ps & Cs, crank, and CR. I'll get these numbers up as soon as I get them.

I have found another likely vac leak. There is a port on the back of the TB adjacent to the decel valve that was open; not capped or w/ a line attached. I'll post a pic later. I wanted to use the PP parts diagram but the link to PET isn't currently working.

snbush67,

You are right in that I have a mongrel system. But it worked flawlessly for me for over 15 years. It was only recently that I had the problems I'm currently working on.

Paul,

Your car is going to run great after you finish fixing those leaks. Keep pressing on.

Cheers,
Craig

Paul,

Please know that I am faithfully subscribed to your threads, often times (back when I had CIS) when I was experiencing CIS issues, your threads would come up in my search for help. It is because of you I often didn't have to ask the question again. So I personally have gained from your quest and applaud your continued efforts.

I am hoping as much as anyone that when you get this thing put back together that it gives you the mongrel ride of your life.

Good Luck,

Shane

You'll be back on the road soon........
 

Paul,

While you are fortunate to locate the major cause of your problem/s, I would take this opportunity to do the job well. If I were you, I would consider listening and evaluating the suggestions made by others. Some make sense and some are doubtful but give them some thoughts. Many times we believe we know all but my personal experience says I was wrong several times too often.

As you have experienced lately, looking for this mysterious air leak is not that easy or convenient. I hope you found all the sources. But what would you do if you missed the others after putting back all the parts together? What would you have done differently if you have to start all over again?

If I were in your shoes, I'll pull the engine out. Inspect thoroughly and install the CIS components back. Pressure test the whole system (10-15 psi), test with soapy water, and observe any pressure drop. Having an engine test stand is a great advantage and convenience. Whatever you decide to do, we all wish you well and success. BTW, are you enjoying prolonging this agony of yours (just kidding)???

Tony

Going by the numbers, the parts are compatible but makes me wonder who installed the intake runners without gaskets?
And running great without them for 15 years? That's pretty good.

Agree that you'd want the details about P/C's, CR etc. for future use.
Also, find out what cams you have. SC or?
You'd need that should you ever need to time the cams.

Vacuum leaks out of the way, it should humm. :)

Of course, any unsuspecting Mechanic would be very puzzled about the ignition wires coming from a distributor that now runs cw in a 3.0. :D

ERROR! ERROR! ERROR!

I've found the intake runner gaskets! When Porsche_Monkey and I removed the CIS from the engine, we took off the intake runners, and the P_M stuffed rags in the openings. When I examined the runners I noticed there were no gaskets, which is what I reported. The gaskets were, of course, back on th block, under the rags. So, my fault. Sorry to mislead everyone.

I did find this however:http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1241398419.jpg The port w/ the black cap was uncapped and had no line attached. Looks like a vac leak to me.

I also found not only the abrasion & hole in the AAR/AAV pipe, I found 2 other wear areas:
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1241398584.jpg

I have attempted a fix using some aluminum from a broom handle which I JB Welded to the pipe.
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1241398696.jpg

I then JB Welded some galvanized steel over the patches, after removing the paint.http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1241398820.jpg

JW mentioned that the pipe rubs on the housing for cooling air to the oil cooler, so I located the wear marks, which I filed down.
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1241398963.jpg

I then covered that area w/ galv steel. When I reinstall the CIS at least there will be 2 same materials in contact. Maybe a little bearing grease between them will keep the abrasion to a minimum. We'll see what happens.
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1241399126.jpg

So it wasn't the gaskets, but I've found that hole in the vac pipe, and an uncapped vac line port, as well as an atmo hose going into the thermovalve. Quite a few problem areas. I now have a newly rebuilt WUR set to factory specs, and some new vac line which will be routed correctly.

Gunter,

Sorry about the incorrect info re the gaskets. As I mentioned, I'm trying to get data from the original builder. I've also contacted the original owner to see what he can add. BTW I have an MSD 6AL CDI w/ a Blaster 2 coil

Well, we're almost there.

The Monkey and I refit the CIS components c/w some new hoses and gaskets, the vac leak in the AAR line plugged, the open port @ the TB capped, the vac lines to & from the thermovalve correct, and a newly rebuilt WUR.

The WUR as received was not "adjustable" The CCP @ 13 or 14C today was 1.5 bar, which is a little low, w/ the power line disconnected. It should be about 1.7 to 2.2. We started the engine. It ran rich. We plugged in the line and watched the CP rise to about 2.5 where it stayed for several minutes. I leaned the mix about 1/4 turn, in 4 steps, and the idle improved significantly but was still a little too rich. It appears the ccp and wcp are both low, producing a too rich condition.


(Tony,

I leaned the mix only to see if in fact the condition was too rich, as we thought. Leaning produced a better idle, so I think we are on the right track. I do want to get the CPs right, however.)


I then installed the adjusting screw to the CCP plug. Keeping the key on but the engine off, and w/ the power connected, I checked the WCP after 2, 4 and 6 minutes. It only rose to 2.6 bar. Warm running after a few minutes should be about 3.4 bar.

We left the green connector off the mix control unit, instead of jumping the FP relay. Would this make a difference? The CDI hums, and, if the sensor plate is raised, the injectors scream.

W/ the engine off and no heat other than the 12 applied volts, is this as high a WCP I can expect? I adjusted the CCP plug upward as far as it would go w/ the screw/nut in the plug, and 2.6 was as high as I could get. Will the WCP increase w/ a warm and running engine? There must be a reason why both the power connection is there and the WUR has to sit on the warmed up block.

I am hesitating to start the engine in case the CCP is now too high, so I'll have to wait until tomorrow to check the CCP w/ the engine off.

So what now? If I can't get the WCP up to 3.4 or so w/o running the engine, should I try to adjust the WCP plug downward, which increases the WCP? Should I try to drill out the brass plug @ the bottom and adjust the screw there? Should I shim the WCP spring inside to increase pressure on the diaphragm?

Maybe I should try setting the cold plug to the correct CCP for tomorrow's temp, start the engine, and w/ the heater connected, and the WUR sitting on the manifold, observe the WCPs rise. Maybe w/ both heat and power, the WCP will get up to where it needs to be.

Any suggestions?

I think you need to modify the WUR now to get proper warm control pressure. I think the main spring needs to be 'shortened' to get your pressures up? Or remove the vacuum line from the WUR and see what that does.

If you have increased the pressures slightly, I would not be afraid to start the engine.

WCP needs to go up more.......
 

Paul/Monkey (Porsche),

Glad to hear the progress of your work. The warm control pressure (WCP) is dictated by the pressure applied by the spring after the bi-metallic spring has completely deflected from the main spring during warm-up phase. I thought you had the WUR regulator re-calibrated to spec a few weeks ago. If you are not getting a WCP between 3.4 - 3.6 bar or around 50-54 psi (+/-), try to get it closer. Your WCP of 2.6 bar is just too LOW to sustain a consistent CIS operation.

Adjust the 'block' down or increase the spring pressure to raise the WCP. Or find a working WUR. Save your custombuilt WUR as your spare and install a good one. CIS is an old and antiquated technology but could be made to run reliably if you keep the parameters close to the specifications (fuel pressures, etc.).

BTW, shortening the 'spring' will cause the WCP to drop more. Why? The more pressure you apply to the valve diaphragm, the higher the control pressure reads. Keep up the good work and we want to see the car running soon!!!

Tony

When Tony was helping me, one thing that was of importance was to set the WCP first.

Even if it is hard to start (high or low pressure) get the warm right first.

This was of HUGE help to me .
If the cold is way off adjusting that can move the WCP.
So you move closer and reset it.
Each time I did it I would adjust Warm and not mess with things again till the next morning.

I have been watching all your posts and they have helped me as well ..

Your not alone ...and soon not alone ...with a great running car.:)
Finally I am running great and can play with the things I want to ... those do not include CIS.

Tony,

The WUR isn't "Custom" in any way. It's a bonafide 045 WUR for a 79 911. I had a firm that specializes in FI repair rebuild it and set it to factory specs. Unfortunately there is no way for me to test it w/o it being on the car, so I don't know if my engine is somehow keeping the WCP low or if they set it wrong.

I think we want to get more pressure against the diaphragm to raise the WCP so I've got to either push the large plug (Block) down or increase pressure upwards. I have read that this can also be done via a screw hidden behind the brass plug @ the bottom. When I tried knocking the large plug down previously, I could only raise the WCP to about 2.6 so since I'm starting w/ a WCP @ that point I may be able to get it higher.

I can check out the screw on the bottom on one of my "spares".

Brian,

I'm going to follow that procedure. Tomorrow I'll see what CCP I have. I'll then set it to spec for the ambient temp and then start the car and see where it goes. Today it went from about .5 too low cold to about .9 too low warm. Maybe starting higher will get me a higher WCP as well.


So everyone agrees--I should be able to get the "warm and running" WCP even if the engine isn't running but the WUR is plugged in and has been on for a few minutes? If this is true, then why are both the heating element and the engine heat required?

We're almost there.

You got special talent.......
 

Brian,

When I first communicated (PM) with you not too long ago, you didn't even know where the WUR was located. Or what AAR was all about. But in a very short time, you have turned into something special. Due to your background and experience, you picked up the techniques in CIS just like that. You have impressed me with your work and should share your experience with others in need. I'm no expert in CIS but sharing my limited knowledge with someone like you is priceless.

Tony

Please look at Ricks911s video........
 

Paul,

Did you ever see that video (Ricks911s) posted in his thread. That's a very good example showing the cold control pressure building over a period of time without the engine running. If your WUR is not capable of having a 'ramp time' to spec by the heating element you have a problem.

As I said many times to you, you are making a small problem into a research!!! You need to seal your air leaks and have a working WUR. We won't be here discussing a simple problem if your approach to problem solving is working. The fact that your CIS problem/s takes several months of discussions say something about your process.

That beloved WUR of yours is your Waterloo. The bi-metalic strip is not deflecting and will not be of any help to your problem. I'm becoming sarcastic and rude to you just to get your attention but I'm not getting any where. Please accept my apology. Just ask Wyvern. Good luck.

Tony