My Rust Remediation Project
 

Ahh......a new project.... I decided to investigate what look like a smallish rust hole from the outside (underneath the car). I've worked on some older cars before so, I've been around the block with rust, and know well the whole "what you see is only a small portion of the total actual" adage.

Here's what I saw, after tearing out the back seats.
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1238822289.jpg


http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1238822594.jpg

It seems to me that it will be easier to replace the whole rear seat panel, rather than trying to cut out the bad rust spots, and making patch panels.

I have some questions though.

Is this panel structural? If so, should I put in some bracing in before I start cutting spot welds?

I plan on grinding/wire brushing off the seam sealer, then cut the spot welds, so I can remove the rear seat bucket panel from the inner fender area, and then cut straight across just below the package tray area.

On the bottom side, should I remove all the way down to the floor pan?

I'll post pictures of my progress, from removal, to replacement to undercoating, and the re-addition of interior sound deadening.

-Dave

Personally, I would cut out the flat section of the bottom of the seat and stitch in a repair plate. Trying to replace the entire panel is much more difficult, and no one will ever know which repair you did.

It is not 'structural', you do not need to brace.

shaun (shaun84targa) has the piece you need if you want to do a nice job.
see here:http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-911-used-parts-sale-wanted/465076-73-rear-deck-seats.html
IMHO a longhood shouldn't be cobbled together.
bob

I am doing the same project... pics would be great and I can forward mine along too

Definitely weld in only what is thin. Cut out to where the metal thicknesses between the replacement part and the car are equal, no exceptions. You could very easily lap weld this piece and seal with poly body caulk on both sides. That would be a plenty acceptable repair.

Yes, the whole thing would be considered structural if you were to remove it from quarter to quarter. The thing is, any welding should be done over a period of time to allow your panels to cool naturally between sessions. We usually skip around rather than weld for a long period in one place.

Tack it in at four places, then divide the distances between welds in half, tack some more and so on.

Well, I didn't get to any cutting this weekend. I spent most of my time cleaning up the garage and making room for the parts from disassembly. In the process I also found some more rust on the package tray :( So, I guess there was a leak in the rear window seal.

Here's some more pictures:

Original foam and sound pad.
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1239038633.jpg

Passenger side package tray
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1239038727.jpg

Driver side package tray
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1239038806.jpg

Rust hole in package tray at the back driver side corner, where the defrost wires come in from the engine compartment.......sigh......
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1239038915.jpg

So, originally I was planning on removing the rear seat bucket panel from inner quarter to inner quarter, and replacing it full stop with donor metal. Now, with the discovery of the package tray rust(I guess I should have expected this), I would also be faced with removing that panel and replacing it also.

I hear a couple of people (Milt and Porsche_Monkey) saying the best way to go would be to stitch in replacement pieces to the thin areas of metal.

Here's a first pass of some areas that would need patching. (Circled in Black)
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1239040230.jpg

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1239040315.jpg

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1239040380.jpg

So, I'm looking for some opinion. When I look at all the pieces that need to be replaced, it makes me think that replacing the whole panel would take less time. Opinion from those who have replaced either of these panels entirely? Would you do it that way again? I'm all for patching in the bad spots. I have some concerns about patching some of the compound curved areas. What gauge metal are these factory panels?

I'm in the same boat with my '68. Rust in the parcel shelf and some in the fenders where it attaches. Fortunately the seat bottoms are fine. I am still grinding to expose all of the rust. Right now I'm looking to fix with sheet metal patches but may look to get a complete shelf if I can find one at a reasonable price. I'm anxious to see other replies

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1239045200.jpg

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1239045211.jpg

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1239045227.jpg

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1239045235.jpg

remove the rear window, get a proper respirator, angle grinder and a few 40 grit flap discs and a large brush cup and have at it so you can see where you have good clean metal, thin metal and perforation.

it won't look like this, but all of the good metal left should. Anything thin or perforated should be cut out and patched, but at some point patching becomes a bigger job than replacing the whole thing.

Thanks for the reference Bob, appreciate it.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1239045939.jpg

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1239045949.jpg

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1239045957.jpg

I didn't mean to infer that I would piece meal lots of patches in. I'd draw a line around each area that has to be replaced and cut out the shape. I'd probably square up the shape to make the repair look good.

On the trays, what seems to go is the very edges. When you get the donor piece, likely it wont have the original flanges on it. I've made those flanges to attach the tray to the sides. You could make an exaggerated flange (sort of a long "L") that reached out well into the field of the tray and probably be done with it.

These pieces don't run straight for any considerable length, so your abilities will be tested.

Shaun,
Nice work!

I'm going to spend some time with the grinder and find out exactly how bad some of the rust spots are. Then I'll take some more pics to show what would need to be replaced. I'm curious to hear from those who have been here before, when does it become more time effective to replace the whole panel versus patching?

I'll put it this way, a whole package tray took me 24 hours the first and only time I did it. I can do a front pan in 8 to 12 hours, depending. It took me over an hour to get the tray out of a wreck and I cut everything in sight. It took another 2 hours to separate the tray I needed from the portion I cut out of the car.

I just took a look at this thread - Oh I thought, some one has found my car and taken pictures of my parcel tray!!!

the tray I have been looking at for weeks now wondering just where to start.

Also in the same rusty shade of conda green. (that's not rust - its old glue- right?)

when Im done looking at the parcel tray - scratching my head wondering if the mig still works, I look at the front pan..... ( or where it used to be) then when Im done doing that I speculate about about the state of the inner sills..... (probably rusty too)

I then head inside for a trusted remedy...........

Drink until I stop thinking about it and hit the internet to debate the finer details of leather versus vinal - Im quite drunk by now so of course it's going to be the leather - and to hell with it I'll take a pair of new 69 - 72 door pockets......

You get the picture!

Good luck and keep us posted.

Tom

Funny Tom! Remember my advice!

Eric,
Very tempting right now!

Sending you a PM

Seems like it would be much easier to have the car sand plasted (maybe not sand) rather than doing the grinding. Shaun how do you rate the POR15 product and have you used rust remover as a first step? There are many products and I have to do some rust repair.

It's much better to get personal with the metal in this situation. the feedback from the grinder will tell you what you have.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1239045235.jpg[/QUOTE]

Dan, I'm curious. Are those round holes that run vertically, along the back, just below the rear window frame, from the factory? Or did you make those? Looks cool to me.

Thanks for all the input everyone. There was a question about blasting the interior, the only problem is the outside paint is in very good shape, so I'd prefer to just take the time and grind.

They are factory, early cars had no electric rear defrost, instead they relied on warm air being blown through two tubes into the rear sheet metal and coming out those holes to keep the window clear. It worked just as well as you might imagine.

My rear panel was so rusted I had to cut it out and replace it. Good luck finding a suitable replacement piece if you want it to remain stock looking. There are no replacement new parts available, and as you can imagine, finding an un-rusted part from a parts car is pretty much impossible, especially since the early cars panel is different than later cars. . If you aren't worried about orginal appearance you can use parts from a later car, or fabricate something that fills the holes in.

I have two of these, cut large, that are 99.5% rust free.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1237983336.jpg

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1237983345.jpg

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1237983355.jpg

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1237983365.jpg

Rust
 

Midways in my rust repair project. I have been very happy to have a mini die grinder with cut off wheels, and with 25 grit grinding pads, as well as a air saw. Got them from Auto Body Store online. Making pieces now for the repairs. Anyone have any thoughts on how to match those compound curves ?

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1239074186.jpg
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1239074206.jpg
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1239074247.jpg
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1239074280.jpg

See here for a possible source

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/paint-bodywork-detailing-forum/466913-swb-parcel-shelf-seat-back.html

I never thought something like this. Now, everything's going to be easier thanks for the tip.

Shawn, I wasn't very clear I was replying to Dans query, 68's, and earlier are different than the later cars. It's not to hard to find later car repair pieces, pretty hard for a 68

Incredible project !!!!!

What a work !!!!

Rust
 

I called around for tubs to cut pieces out of. The ones I found were from later cars and were more rusty then mine. Plus the cheapest one was $850. So I elected to make pieces out of 18 gauge sheetmetal (thanks Milt for mentioning the thickness needed). Got one mostly shaped up last night. I'll send photos of progress when I make some more.

Agreed, the 72-73 stuff is easy because targa's don't typically rust and the panel can be used for coupes which do. Pre-69 stuff is rare but fortunately there are enough 912s that have been taken off the road that allow for pieces to be found given some patience.

Has anyone seen threaded mounts on the rear shelf like in these pics? They are not the rear window defroster ports. I was thinking that they were non-factory but they appeard to be covered with the factory paint/coating. They are threaded on the inside and did not poke through the rear vinly covering. The car is a '68 US 911.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1239219613.jpg

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1239219626.jpg

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1239219635.jpg

Rust
 

Jesus that looks nasty. The older 911s seem to have those things, but I have no idea what they do.

fortunately the rust isn't too bad but I still need to attack the innder fender area where the shelf attaches. Already started cutting out the other areas. The guy from the UK is stating it will be about $200 for the shelf but it would have to be shipped from the UK too.

Optional shoulder belt mounting points.

Update: Engine Removed
 

Update:
I spent a little bit more time with the wire wheel grinding rust away, and soon decided that I'd eventually need access to the same areas from the engine side. So, I dropped the engine+trans today.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1241327023.jpg

It was my first drop and all went smoothly. I spent a lot of time reviewing this thread:
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-911-technical-forum/401955-supporting-engine-removal-2.html

Lots of good ideas. I went to the hardware store with intentions of buying some nice medium duty casters and building a dolly from scratch, but in the end I went with buying a "heavy duty" furniture dolly, and adapting it. It turned out really well, and was easy on the pocketbook. All it took to make it suitable was adding some blocks of 3/4 inch plywood to the center of it to provide the support for the case. I thought I had taken a picture of it but.....I can't find it.

I hit a snag trying to separate the trans from the engine. I've done this before with the VW, so I figured it was just a matter of supporting it and unscrewing the 4 bolts. After wrestling with it a bit and getting more than a little tired I stepped back and looked for anything missing that might be holding the trans on. Then I saw this was still connected....

NOTE: Picture was taken before the drop and only serves to illustrate the throwout bearing fork actuator.
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1241327686.jpg

and it was pushing against the exhaust cross over tube.

So, I took a guess and broke out the cir-clip pliers removed it and knocked the fork off.

As soon as I did that the trans pulled away very easily. As I'm sure any experienced readers can attest.

But, now I'm worried that the wiggling I did trying to get the trans to part with the engine prior to removing the fork may have done to the input shaft bearing.

Should I be worried about this? Is there something I should check?

nice work, loving the progress
keep it up

I had less rust than you but I opted to do the whole seat pan. It was just a 2- day job. Easy as far as bodywork goes.

Here's the tutorial on the Paint and Body Forum.

Part 1

Part 2

Also thought I'd mention that in the 1st photo you posted with the circled areas. The area to the left in the picture that you circled is not part of the seat pan but part of the longitudinal which runs from the front wheel well all the way back to the rear cross member. This piece is actually several layers and difficult to work on. I would avoid cutting on it as it probably isn't rusted through and still structurally in good shape. Just take a wire wheel to it and then do some rust treament.

Bobby,

Thanks for the links and info about the longitudinal. This afternoon I was spending some time cleaning out some old AC hoses in the engine bay, and thinking about possibly outsourcing the rust repairs as a way to save sometime. But, after reading your write up and seeing some of your pictures I'm re-invigorated to tackle this myself. So, Thanks for that too!

The pan does look pretty straightforward. I just need to find some donor metal that is local. Where did you find the replacement metal?

A great Pelicaneer named Dave Winters (DTW) helped me out by cutting a donor piece from an SC he cut up. It was a lot of work for him and he's since swore of cutting up sheet metal to sale. It can be a lot of work and no real profit when you figure what your time is worth. Shaun (Shaun 84 Targa) cuts up cars from time to time so you might check with him.

If you can find a local donor car then you can go cut it out yourself which I've done before.

Get yourself a spot weld cutter so you won't have to put holes in your longitudinals. Also get yourself a can of WD40 to spray the cutter and keep the RPMs down to control the heat. Heat dulls blades in no time.

You might practice on a scrap to get the feel for it.

Dave is a great guy, that's for sure.

Did some work on this 72 yesterday. Sad story. Everyone said this car was too far gone (when I posted here) but I kept it thinking I could weld in a new front suspension pan, left rear quarter, some patchwork here and there and it would be good body. A lot of work, but worth it as a signal yellow 72. I tried to sell the entire thing for the price of the oil system, still no takers, but plenty who need sheetmetal.

My suspicions were correct. This is (was) a very solid car and shouldn't have been cut up. The entire rear deck and seats are factory new, already new that, but the rest of the car was really solid as well. Too late now. :( At least the metal is going toward cars that are getting back on the road. Going to try to get the wiring harness out in one piece.

hope you are well Bobby.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1241398638.jpg

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1241398685.jpg

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1241398714.jpg

Doing great Shaun. When you coming back out to the west coast? It was greaqt gettin together when you were out here.

Poor Targa. :( They just don't get the respect that coupes do. There day will come.

I have no doubt you'll come out ahead parting that car. Even the 71'S Targa I parted was worth more in parts. Go figure.

Update: Engine Bay Cleanup
 

Earlier this week I spent some time cleaning up the engine bay. I started by removing the old AC lines and followed that up by removing the engine bay wiring harness.

Here's how it looked when I called it a day.
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1241820276.jpg

Some rather strange foam jamed up in here. Tough to tell if it was from the factory or not......
Anyone know where I can get a replacement rubber tube for the wiring harness? Mine is rotten.
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1241820358.jpg

I'm thinking the upper rubber shock mounts are toast......
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1241820496.jpg

Now I need to drain the gas tank so I can remove the fuel pump and lines. Then get the sheet metal from Shaun. Shouldn't be too long now, before I can start cutting out the panels. I also need to remove the rear window.....maybe I'll tackle that tomorrow.