Did the 3.0 swap and cant get this thing to start!

[VinceQN]

I just bought a 1976 911with a 2.7. had a mechanic aquire a 3.0 and install the engine at my home in my garage. Since the rebuilt engine has been installed I have found out there is a problem with the ignition switch. I bypassed ignition with a jumper wire from starter HOT wire to starter remote wire, and it turns over but not like most cars. Its a chug chug chug but very slowly maybe a chug every 2 seconds. Im use to a very fast cranking maybe 4 turns per second on most cars. I double checked battery condition(which was a new battery) and stuck it on a 24hr charge to make sure batt had full power output. I thought hmmmm maybe load on the system somewhere do to a short......so I disconnected the HOT wire and battery wire AT THE STARTER and dragged the battery all the way under the car to the starter and used my jumper cables to connect to HOT and grounded it to the starter bolt, jumped it like before with a wire
from HOT to remote starter wire same frequency of turns on engine as well as same power output from engine slow chug. The starter was bench tested before rebuilt engine was installed(which even though tested could still be starter). Does anyone think there might be something in the engine thats impeding its cranking ability? Or maybe needs better grounding straps?? The ground is the only thing I did not replace do to this problem for trouble shooting purposes. I still don't know how fast a 911 engine should crank with NO FUEL applied. Battery is suppose to be new thus good, starter was bench tested(and tested good) and the solenoid was replaced. engine rebuilt......now here's where I am not sure if engine could play a roll in impeding cranking ability. Any info anyone can shed on this would be greatly appreciated. Thanks to all in advance,

Vince

[Joe Bob]

You do realize that the firing order is different and it turns the other way on the 3.0?

[snbush67]

Originally Posted by mikez

You do realize that the firing order is different and it turns the other way on the 3.0?

Actually, the firing order is the same on all 911's.

Vince,

If it is a rebuilt engine that has not been run in yet it will turn over a little hard but it shoulnt be as hard as you describe. Has it been started and ran before?

[Aurel]

Let me get this straight: the mechanic installed the motor in your garage, but never started it and you found later on there was a problem? Or did the motor run well at the beginning, until you had the ignition switch problem?

[euro911sc]

Take the plugs out, remove the red fuel pump relay, make sure the plug to the CDI is unplugged. Then try again. It should crank at the same speed as other cars. A lot quicker than it sounds like it is. Your starter could actually be toast.

-Michael

[VinceQN]

The motor ran before we installed it. I have not been able to start in this car. First the tank was full of rust and fuel wasnt going through, replaced that, then the starter problem, rebuilt the starter, and we arise to the current problem.

[VinceQN]

The starter does not even turn when trying to start it from the car. I am looking for a kill switch for the starter, but just to try to get the motor to turn is when i arc the starter am having this problem. I am wondering if it is a grounding issue, a starter issue, or even a motor issue, dont know where to start at this point.

[Aurel]

Is it the same starter as was originally with the 3.0? I am thinking compression too high with this motor maybe? Trying to crank with the plugs out is excellent advice.

[scottrx7tt]

sounds as if the timing is off, or you have some plug wires switched.

[boyt911sc]

Vince,

There are several and different ways to find your problem/s. If I were you, I would investigate like the following:
1). Bench test the starter. If it turn OK, you could eliminate STARTER as the culprit.
2). Then proceed to retest the starter using the car's battery and wiring. If the starter fails to crank the engine (removal of spark plugs will ease the cranking resistance), your problem is electrical.
3). Grounding and electrical tests to follow. It will show if you have a kill switch or some interruption in the circuit. Don't disregard a faulty ignition switch for causing your problem.

BTW, what kind of ignition system you're using now? Bosch CDI or a different one? Keep us posted.

Tony

[Joe Bob]

Am I the first idiot to do this?

[snbush67]

162435 for every flat six air cooled engine.

[Turboo934]

Originally Posted by snbush67

162435 for every flat six air cooled engine.

But the SC 3.0 turns CCW also are you using the 6 pin CDI or the one from your car . You would need 6 pin CDI from SC 3.0

[euro911sc]

Originally Posted by boyt911sc

Vince,

There are several and different ways to find your problem/s. If I were you, I would investigate like the following:
1). Bench test the starter. If it turn OK, you could eliminate STARTER as the culprit.
2). Then proceed to retest the starter using the car's battery and wiring. If the starter fails to crank the engine (removal of spark plugs will ease the cranking resistance), your problem is electrical.
3). Grounding and electrical tests to follow. It will show if you have a kill switch or some interruption in the circuit. Don't disregard a faulty ignition switch for causing your problem.

BTW, what kind of ignition system you're using now? Bosch CDI or a different one? Keep us posted.

Tony

Guys... firing order, ignition, and distributor direction have nothing to do with not being able to crank the engine with the key or a direct battery connection... lets back up a little

Tony has a good strategy.

Vince, keep in mind that over the years the rebuilt Bosch starters have not had the best reputation for reliability. It may be that your 'rebuilt' starter is still not up to snuff. Though, you say it has been bench tested so lets assume it is good to go. Any compression change will be canceled out by removing the plugs. You could order a 'high torque' starter... I am concerned that when you direct connect the battery you get the same slow chuging... but:

I'm feeling that if the battery is new and the starter is re-built there is a wiring issue. I used to have this kind of issue every year when I took the car out of storage. Basically, I had to clean (600-1000 grit paper) all the connections and fuses:

• The ground strap on the tranny
• The body connection for said ground strap
• The battery connection at the battery
• The battery ground connection on the body
• The yellow starter wires, there are 2
• Then hit each fuse lightly in the front trunk and make sure they are seated well
• Hit the engine compartment fuses too
• I use dielectric grease too just for kicks on my connections

Ok, after this if it still does not crank with a decent frequency then I would say it is the starter. I would replace with a light high torque one.

You still have your ignition switch issue to deal with once it is cranking well. This should be next as you will have to place the battery in the correct circuit for the alternator to charge it when running and the ignition switch has several connections that need to be active to start the engine. If it is just the 'start' position that has a problem you can set it to 'run' and use a remote start button.

Once you get it to crank well from a starting switch (remote or key) we can move forward to the more complicated stuff

Best regards,

Michael

[Joe Bob]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

After a total engine rebuild, transmission rebuild, complete rotisserie body rebuild I was ready on Saturday to turn the key. Rebuilt suspension and brakes were on, wheels on the ground and engine and transmission were installed. Filled it up with fluids and after taking care of a couple little leaks it was time to fire it up. Nothing happened when I turned the key. Right...a couple fuses need to be in. Put in the fuses and turned the key, saw the oil pressure rise but no firing. I spent the entire day Saturday checking the ignition, then most of Sunday checking the fuel system then late Sunday afternoon I finally got it to sputter when I put the accelerator to the floor. But, it backfired so hard that it blew the pop-off valve right out of the airbox. I'm glad I had installed that valve, or I would have had an exploded airbox. That backfire made me re-check the ignition. I finally checked the firing order by reviewing Waynes book I used to rebuild the engine. Yes, I had them wired exactly like it shows in the picture....but then I read the fine print in the caption below the picture that said:

"Swap plugs 6 and 5 along, with plugs 3 and 2 for the SC and Turbo configuration"

It was one of those moments where you're so happy you finally figured out the problem, you're not angry with yourself for screwing it up initially. I switched the plug wires on the distributor and she fired up smooth on the first turn of the key. It was late Sunday night and not the appropriate time to do the 20min high-rev break-in (neighbors would not have appreciated it), so I shut it down after a minute.

Am I the only idiot that's done this?

Geoff

[euro911sc]

No you are not alone... I used a sharpie and marked each node on the cap before I took it off for dis-assy. I knew it would be a few years and my memory sux lately

-Michael

[Aurel]

More suggestions:

1- Use a remote starter switch to activate the solenoid directly. It could be that the solenoid is not getting enough voltage from the ignition key circuit.
2- With spark plugs removed, if it still does not crank fast enough, use a wrench on the fan pulley to rotate the crank clockwise manually. You should not feel too much resistance, that would eliminate the possibility that there is something mechanical preventing rotation. If you feel a hard spot, do not force. Do not rotate CCW.

[T77911S]

how did you all get on the firing order when he is saying the starter will not turn the motor over? even with dizzy's 180 out, the motor will still turn over at normal speed.

put a multimeter on the battery when you start it, if the voltage drops below 10 or 11 volts, the battery is bad no matter what the charge voltage is.
clean ALL of your connections, both positive and grounds. make sure you have the ground strap from the body to the engine and it is clean.

[VinceQN]

Sorry for the late response and thank you everyone for your input. Its been a very hectic few weeks on both professional and personal sides. I went and got a better battery (optima) and replaced tha starter with a high torque starter. Still not able to start the car but when I arcked the starter the engine was turning at what it should have been cranking at. I am now assuming it is an electrical problem. I believe this car did have and aftermarket alarm on it at one point (I got the car without keys and had to get them made) Is there a common area to put a kill switch on this car? I was going to go at it tonight and would like some input.