Ignition switch starter lockout problem
 

You know when you turn your ignition key all the way to the rightmost start position and you're supposed to feel spring resistance right when you crank the starter? If there's no spring resistance, the starter doesn't crank. Yesterday it became intermittent between spring action and no spring action, finally ended up that there's no spring resistance and no starter action at all.

Thread searches seemed to indicate that the spring resistance is in the electrical switch section, so I took that out, and don't really feel the spring resistance at the end of the rotation, but do feel resistance of the detents of each position. This leads me to think the spring resistance is located in the mechanical portion of the ignition switch housing. Turning the key in the ignition assembly without the switch shows no resistance or spring action. I tried starting the car with the switch out of the assembly and using a screwdriver to rotate it. Dash lights up like normal, in position 1, but when I go to the start position, lights go out like normal, but no love from the starter.

Anyone know what's going on and what the solution may be? Is there some type of selenoid in the switch housing?

The spring action is in the electrical part. It is surprisingly tight, so use a screwdriver and give it a *little* extra umph.

The electrical part is a pretty simple piece, with the spring, detents and starter-lockout. It's possible/probable that the lockout has broken loose or frozen. If something else was broken in there, you wouldn't be getting lights and such (I think it's just a disk with the contacts that spins around to touch other contacts).

Frankly, once that assembly starts to go, it's gone, get another one.

Edit: Or go for a push button start...

OK, got it, I turned the switch harder with a screwdriver, say from 12:00 to 4:30 and got the springing action and the car started.

So I put the switch back in the housing, turned the key, and seems stops right around the 4:00 position, not allowing rotation to get past that to get to 4:30 where you get the spring resistance. I'm guessing there's some kind of lockout in the housing preventing the starter position?

I've found that when the electrical part starts to go, you can get that intermittent start ability. Sometimes it involves wriggling the key and putting pressure on it to get it to "pop" over to the start location. It's gonna break soon. There is a lockout such that if you do get over to the start location, and then let it spring back, you cannot them put it back to start without completely shutting the car off. This is to prevent hitting the starter while the engine is running. That action is obvious when you do it, and it doesn't seem like it's what's going on with you, but I do think it's that same lockout assembly that is breaking internally and causing your issues.

The mechanical part of the switch is "dumb", and doesn't have any detents or anything, so it won't prevent the key from turning all the way over. Unless of course it physically breaks like my last one did, where the little pot metal "cross" that engages the electrical portion cracks off and jams in place, but you would have known already if something like that happened.

So the lockout is in the housing correct? The electrical switch seems to be normal. Is the mechanical part really completely dumb? There's a separate two wire connector that plugs into the mechanical part that controls the lockout I'm guessing?

I'm afraid I'm going to be going through this mess soon with mine. currently I have to turn my switch back a few degrees after starting the car to get my Power Windows, Sunroof, and Brake Lights(!) to work. Not sure how long I drove around without brake lights before I discovered this issue.

I experienced the same problem several years ago. A little spray of WD40 into the key slot with the supplied straw solved it. Cheap and easy give it a try!

No, the lockout is in the electrical part, you can test it with your screwdriver.

Now, I'll add that the lockout came along later in the years, but I don't know when. If you're is completely stock and original, it *might* be pre-lockout. If it's ever been replaced, then it has a lockout (the new part has a 964 part number).

The two wires on the mechanical part are some kind of sensor that tells something if the steering wheel lock is retracted or not. I'm not sure if it will actually prevent the car from starting. I know that you can disconnect those wires, and everything still works, so if it is actually part of the wiring harness, then it goes OPEN when the car can start, and CLOSED when the steering is locked.

The only stuff in the mechanical part is the key tumbler (your seems fine since you can turn it), a piece of metal that takes the key motion and turns the electrical part, and the simple assembly that runs the steering wheel lock...there's no other switches/lockouts/anything in there. You can (and I have) drive the car without the mechanical part installed.

Hello,
Excuse me for interrupting but I have a question about the ignition switch removal process that I hope someone can answer on this thread. I am replacing the electical part of the switch on my '77 911, following "101..." Although everything is loose, the switch will not leave the dash despite my maneuvers. Looks like the large round plug needs to be off first. Can this plug be pried apart or is there a trick? After 32 years it is not cooperating. Thanks for any help.
Regards......Doug

Doug,
On my 79 I couldn't get the switch out either had to chisel the two rivets off the plate that the switch goes thru in order to get it out.
Hope this helps.

Switch removal:

From the front of the dash:
Remove the trim ring around the keyhole.
Drill out or dremel the two security bolts (once the tension is off of them, they come out easy).
Drill out the two small rivets. The plate around the switch in the dash should be loose now.

From under the dash:
Remove the wiring harness from the back of the switch (it just slides on the contacts, it's tight, get a thin screwdriver between the pieces and pry it loose).
Loosen the locknut right under the steering wheel where the steering lock connects with the steering column. Loosen the set screw that the locknut is holding. Don't completely remove it, but get it pretty loose.


The switch is now loose, and should come out. It takes a bit of maneuvering. Once it's out, you can remove the electrical portion from the mechanical portion with the two small flathead screws that hold them together.

Putting in is about 10 times harder than removing it :D

Pete,
Thank you for replying. I have ground off the heads of the shear bolts with a Dremel and loosened the nut on the steering lock. My problem is clearance for removal of the switch. Can the large round electrical plug be taken off while the unit is still under the dash? I don't want to damage it while prying and there does not appear to be sufficient room if the electrics are attached. Again, thanks.....Doug

Brake cleaner, wd40 and massaging/cleaning the tumblers fixed my intermittent non start ignition switch.....been good for 3+ years since.

The plug can and must be removed before removing the switch. It just pulls off, give it some elbow grease. The pins inside are big healthy things, you can safely get a screwdriver in there and work it loose with that.

Pazuzu,
I appreciate your thorough responses. Now I just need the time and talent to finish. Thank you.

After more research, it appears the no start lockout is probably occurring in the key cylinder portion of the ignition switch. Apparently there's a pressed backplate on the backside of the cylinder that performs a no start lockout until you turn your key full back to off. The backplate loosens off enough to keep the starter position permanently locked out. Here's the post that detailed the lockout and the problem with pictures:
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-911-technical-forum/348306-ignition-switch-inside-fix-start-lockout.html

Looks like I'm going to have to pull the whole assembly out and either try to fix it or replace it.

Also, it seems the two pin electrical connector on the housing is used for the key in buzzer.

I don't care for the lockout that prevents operating the starter twice without going back to the off position. It reminds me of forklifts and really, there is no chance I'm going to forget my engine is running.

Steve.

I had my '84 do the same thing last year. I took the ignition switch out and took it to a guy here in Denver who is somewhat of a wizard on P cars and in about 5 minutes, he dissambled the mechanical portion of the switch and removed the pin that performs the lock out (that pin keeps you from activating the starter while the engine is running). He told me to be careful not to try to start the car while the engine is running. It has worked like a charm since then. I thought I might have to replace the electrical portion, but that was definitely not the problem.

PM me and I can find the guys number. He would talk to you on the phone and direct you with what to do.

Thanks, I'm going to see if I can salvage the lockout mechanism first by repunching the backplate retainer pins on the key cylinder. If not then I can always remove the lockout pin as it doesn't look that complicated. Looks like the biggest job is going to removing and reinstalling the whole steering lock assembly.

+1
Only I flooded the mechanical portion with WD40, worked the key repeatedly, and then blew it out with compressed air. Switch worked fine after that.
HTH:cool: