Real time - battery just exploded

[Jgordon]

Update - AAA told me that they'll tow me 3 miles, and it's $4.50 a mile after that. Rudtner's is 68 miles away, making it a proposition of $300 to get it there.

So, if I were to put in a new battery and just wrap a garbage bag around it, even if it dies, that's about $120, making me lean toward the sacrificial battery option.

Thoughts?

[T77911S]

Originally Posted by john_cramer

I wasn't aware that ANY Optima battery is type certificated for aircraft use.

John, FIX the regulator immediately you don't want it frying the Motronic control unit.

Bill can fix you up if you just flatbed it to him, he's not cheap but he knows what to do.

i forget that a lot of you are pilots. i meant for the engine generators at the facilites like he said above

[304065]

Originally Posted by Jgordon

Update - AAA told me that they'll tow me 3 miles, and it's $4.50 a mile after that. Rudtner's is 68 miles away, making it a proposition of $300 to get it there.

So, if I were to put in a new battery and just wrap a garbage bag around it, even if it dies, that's about $120, making me lean toward the sacrificial battery option.

Thoughts?

Call Bill and explain, maybe he will come pick it up or one of his shop guys can come get it on the back side of the clock.

Listen, Optima batteries take a 15 volt charging voltage, that's what they like. To blow one up requires that the charging voltage is WAY in excess of that number, maybe 17-18 volts. The reason it blew up is that when the battery charges, gas is released from the cells which leaks out of the battery through calibrated vents. (they aren't really "sealed." When the charging rate goes too high, "somethin's gotta give."

If you want to use a new battery, that's OK, but you should absolutely monitor the charging voltage, either with a plug-in cigarette lighter voltmeter, available for like $25, or put your voltmeter set to the volts scale on the battery terminals with the car running. My guess is, it's off the scale.

It's a VERY common failure mode for the later voltage regulators to fail in the full-field position. The problem, as I said, is frying everything electrical in the car.

I suppose you could change the VR yourself, pull the alternator, look at what you have, order replacement VR from our host, install (takes a few minutes) and then reinstall a new battery and test. That would take probably four hours if you've never done it before with coaching from the Board.

I would call Billy, a calm professional is a good asset at a time like this.

[Pete000]

I have owned many Optimas and they all failed quickly.

They do not charge well. If you dont use a trickle charger and do let it go down it will not charge back up from a regular charger. I used to have to use jumper cables just to get them charged up enough to let a regular charger finish them up.

I have had several friends report the exact same thing thay also gave up on Optima.

I even took two of them in to the dealer that sold them to me and they tried to charge them for days and gave up and gave me two new batteries which a year later also pooped out.

Optima=JUNK

For everyone who loves them, fantastic keep buying them, for me after four trys 2 red tops,1 yellow top and 1 blue top never ever again.

I will stick to Odyssey.

[911pcars]

My suggestion, take a borrowed battery and connect to the system with jumper cables. Connect a voltmeter to the + and – terminals, then start the engine. Observe the charge voltage. If it's much above 15 volts, don't drive the car as the battery will overheat, perhaps rapidly. A battery will withstand a slightly increased charge voltage for 300 miles, but to increase the safety margin (reduce the charge rate), switch ON the following accessories: headlight high beams, fan, A/C. radio and rear window defroster.

Understand the higher charge rate causes the alternator to operate outside of normal operating conditions which may reduce its service life.

Sherwood

[pwd72s]

Originally Posted by Pete000

I have owned many Optimas and they all failed quickly.

They do not charge well. If you dont use a trickle charger and do let it go down it will not charge back up from a regular charger. I used to have to use jumper cables just to get them charged up enough to let a regular charger finish them up.

I have had several friends report the exact same thing thay also gave up on Optima.

I even took two of them in to the dealer that sold them to me and they tried to charge them for days and gave up and gave me two new batteries which a year later also pooped out.

Optima=JUNK




For everyone who loves them, fantastic keep buying them, for me after four trys 2 red tops,1 yellow top and 1 blue top never ever again.

I will stick to Odyssey.

Optimas don't like high amperage charges...I consider that an okay trade-off for their long life. Every few weeks, I use a battery tender, which charges at a low amperage, on the optima in my old dodge pickemup...the battery is now 10 years old, still going strong. The fact that it sometimes takes overnight to charge doesn't bother me. The battery tender shuts itself off automatically when the battery is fully charged. So, perhaps your problem with optima wasn't the optima?

[Jgordon]

Well, the plot thickens. I used a meter and I'm getting an almost dead even 14 volts across the rpm range (up to 5k), checked both at the cigarette lighter and at the battery.

I had used a battery charger on the dead optima, after jumping it twice (died but held a small charge after the first attempt, got me around with several stop and starts for a day following the second jump). attached the charger just to top it off, before reading that it was bad to let the car charge it on its own here.

So this gives me a measure of confidence that I can at least get to Bill on my own steam. But it also takes out? the primary suspect in the issue, which was a faulty vr. Could the vr be on the fritz, and be going in and out? or do they typically fail catastrophically and that's it?

Again, thanks for all the info.

[ischmitz]

As I said earlier - you damaged the Optima by deep-cycling it. Then, the charging circuit on your car got really confused because the damaged Optima had a high internal resistance. This caused the overvoltage and the Optima responded less than adequate to that......

Chances are once you get a new battery all is fine. Just monitor your voltage from time to time. There are those gadgets that plug into the cirgarete lighter plug. Maybe get one of those. And if you have a planned non-op time of more than 2 weeks do yourself a favor and get a trickle charger. Works perfect and the battery will thank it with long life.

Ingo

[304065]

If you want to kill the alternator, remove it from the car and throw it off the GW bridge.

Seriously now, jump starting?

Automotive starting batteries are designed to drop to about 97% of full charge during a prolonged starting attempt in the winter-- then be recharged back to full in normal operation. When you deep cycle them down to 25% charge (12.2v or lower) they undergo physical changes, shorted plates, all kinds of problems.

The car's alternator, too, is designed to top the car up from a "long start" situation and handle the normal running loads. When you use it to bring the battery back from the dead, it goes to maximum output in an effort to do that-- which also means maximum heat. The fact that this whole operation is going on 4" from the engine block inside a fiberglass shroud makes it worse-- particularly when you turn the engine off- the heat then builds up and cooks the diodes and the regulator.

This heat-soak of the regulator is the reason why the Paris-Rhone setup gets such a bad rap by the way-- heat is the enemy of electrical components.

Anyway, don't jump start your car except in an emergency-- then find out what the problem is and correct it immediately so you don't end up writing a BIG check instead of a small one. . .

Can you make our next McSorley's outing? You deserve a cold beer after suffering through this. (not my post, that's bad enough, I mean the exploding battery syndrome)

[rick-l]

Originally Posted by john_cramer

The car's alternator, too, is designed to top the car up from a "long start" situation and handle the normal running loads.

How do you know this? Do you know someone at Valeo?

[304065]

Originally Posted by rick-l

How do you know this? Do you know someone at Valeo?

Here is the factory workshop manual page with specific guidance on the point.



I will check the Bosch Automotive Handbook tonight, I think the same information is presented there (I have the Seventh Edition).

I don't have a friend at Valeo but I do have one at Bosch. It shouldn't take long to establish that trying to charge a battery with shorted internal cells, or one that has been discharged to 11v, wasn't part of the design criteria.

[Jgordon]

I was going to say that you guys are mean, but then you said beer so we're friends again. I am glad to hear your opinions. I also checked with Matt over at Bill's shop. His thoughts echoed yours, both in the cause and the prognosis.

I'll keep an eye on things, and take it slowly from here. They're going to do some analysis at Bill's shop while they have it in for other work, so I'll let you guys know if we find anything.

When is the next Mcsorley's outing? is there an email chain or something?

[304065]

Originally Posted by Jgordon

I was going to say that you guys are mean, but then you said beer so we're friends again. I am glad to hear your opinions. I also checked with Matt over at Bill's shop. His thoughts echoed yours, both in the cause and the prognosis.

I'll keep an eye on things, and take it slowly from here. They're going to do some analysis at Bill's shop while they have it in for other work, so I'll let you guys know if we find anything.

When is the next Mcsorley's outing? is there an email chain or something?

Mean? If I were really Mean wouldn't say a darned thing. . .

I'm absolutely SLAMMED at the moment but I think early August looks promising. I'll try to get Gytis to bring some original bits from his 68 TR barn find. . .

[look 171]

Does it take more to charge the yellow top. Will that tax our alternators too much so that it will never get fully charge? I am in the process of replacing my 3rd red top and am thinking about going with a yelow because it is design to charging and discharging.

[scotricker]

oh no! should I panic? I just installed a new red top.

with the help of the forum posts about the cool cutting board holder.

It is all fine and happy now. but if I ever think I need to put it on a trickle charger, like a battery tender, should I take it out of the car, or leave it in?

[304065]

Originally Posted by rick-l

How do you know this? Do you know someone at Valeo?

Here is further information from the Optima batteries website:

Deep cycle means using the battery in an application that will typically discharge 60% to 70% or more of the battery capacity. An automotive battery is an SLI (starting, lighting, ignition) battery. It's plates are designed to deliver maximum power for a short duration. Starting a car typically discharges an SLI battery only 1% to 3%. When an SLI battery is used in a deep cycle application, or in a vehicle with heavy accessory loads, the battery life will be shortened proportionally to how deeply it is cycled on a regular basis.

[304065]

Originally Posted by look 171

Does it take more to charge the yellow top. Will that tax our alternators too much so that it will never get fully charge? I am in the process of replacing my 3rd red top and am thinking about going with a yelow because it is design to charging and discharging.

Read here about the required charging voltages.

http://www.optimabatteries.com/product_support/charging.php

Generally speaking, even though the Bosch voltage regulator has a set-point of around 13.8v, the high resistance connections found in most old Porsches could result in a reduction in charging voltage.

[rw7810]

Here's some tech information from Optima I got recently when a Blue top exploded at work. We also use them at AT&T for emergency generators start batteries.

Hello Bob
Thank you for your e-mail.

If exposed to high temperature and/or voltage the battery can dry out, causing at minimum, reduced service life. For float charging (12V system) we recommend 1 amp max, 13.2-13.8v.

12 years in use for a personal vehicle is as you probably know, much better than average. It isn't unheard of, and for an Optima battery to last that long the consumer is doing all the right things to take proper care of the battery. Generally in these cases, it is either a moderate to cool climate or the storage space is temperature controlled, and the vehicle is used regularly, or if not used regularly the vehicle has very low key-off loads and/or a proper maintenance charger is being used consistanty.

Your application is different in many ways, which is why you may not get 12 years. First, you are using the batteries in a string. To some degree the weakest battery will effect the performance and service life of the others. This of course is not an issue in your vehicle, you only have 1 battery that stands on it's own. The emergency start engine charging system you are using is much more complex than what you may be using for your vehicle. With greater complexity comes a greater possibility of a charging system failure which could effect battery life - such as the battery referenced in your newsletter. Also, I assume the based on where you are that the batteries in your application are likely exposed to very high heat. After proper charging parameters, storage temperature is the next most likely determinant of service life.

Depth of discharge and # of cycles will also effect life. The lower the battery is discharged, and the number of times a battery can be discharged for a given level of discharge is finite. It is my understanding that your application is a very large starting application, the batteries are "working harder" or being discharged more than the battery in your vehicle. Regarding number of cycles, probably the emergency start engines have a regular (weekly? monthly?) performance reliability test and the number of cold start cycles on these batteries may be more than your personal vehicle.

It is not at all unusual to get service life from an Optima battery well beyond the warranty period. But how often that period is exceeded and by how much longer is largely determined by the application, environment and maintenance (charging) of the battery.

Best Regards,
Daryl Brockman

Senior Sales Application Engineer
OPTIMA Batteries, Inc.
414-524-6292
daryl.c.brockman@jci.com
www.optimabatteries.com

[look 171]

Originally Posted by john_cramer

Read here about the required charging voltages.

http://www.optimabatteries.com/product_support/charging.php

Generally speaking, even though the Bosch voltage regulator has a set-point of around 13.8v, the high resistance connections found in most old Porsches could result in a reduction in charging voltage.

Thanks John, I have an Interstate battery tender that charges at 1.5 amp instead of 1 amp. Do you think that it will present a problem? It mostly sits in the garage now.

I am thinking that a deep cycle battery like a Yellow Top will take an alternator longer to charge then a normal battery?

[rick-l]

Originally Posted by john_cramer

I don't have a friend at Valeo but I do have one at Bosch. It shouldn't take long to establish that trying to charge a battery with shorted internal cells, or one that has been discharged to 11v, wasn't part of the design criteria.

I would be interested in what he says. I have never seen any information on the duty cycle or capacity of a modern alternator (ones that don't use germanium diodes as above).

If the battery is not defective (shorted cells) its terminal voltage will be 12 volts pretty quick. I wouldn't think there would be much power difference between that and 12.6 volts, fully charged.

I remember the gold Porsche guy asked a Delphi engineer and he scoffed at the idea charging a discharged battery was bad for the alternator.