!@!#!!@ ignition lock!

[beepbeep]

Hi guys!
Sorry for ranting, but i'm having problems starting my 81' 930 beacuse of ignition-lock not allowing me to start the engine. Of course, this is bound to happend when you need the car the most.

Symptoms:

You twist the key but nothing happends (starter-relay doesn't click either). Key doesn't return back to it's normal position but stays in "start"-mode.

Should i try to take out key-lock and open it/clean it? Is it hard to take it out? Is this common problem on 911's?

Thank you!

[john walker's workshop]

are you getting all the way to the start position? usually the lock keeps you from getting thay far when they fail. repeted trys eventually get it there. they really are not fixable. the part is around $200. labor is about 1/2 hr if you know how to do it. 2 pop rivets have to be drilled out, 2 breakoff bolts have to be drilled, and easyouted, and the allen setscrewand it's locknut have to be loosened at the column. if the switch gets to the start position, you should check power out of the switch to the starter before tearing out the switch.

[Wayne 962]

Sounds like it's the electrical portion of the switch that is dogin' you. Replacement is not too difficult, and you can remove the electrical portion without taking out the whole switch (with some dexterity involved). Here is a chapter on the subject from my upcoming book. <- Subtle Plug

-Wayne



Project 91: Replacing your Ignition Switch

Time: 2 hr
Tools: Dremmel tool or die grinder
Applicable Years: All
Talent: 3
Tab: $55-$300
Tinware: New ignition switch (full switch, or electrical only), new break-off bolts for ignition switch
Tip: Removing the steering wheel might make the job a bit easier
Performance Gain: More reliable starting and electrical systems
Comp Modification: Rekey ignition switch

One of the most common electrical items to fail on some of the older 911s is the ignition switch. This failure can show up in any number of ways. The car can refuse to start some of the time, the key may not turn too easily in the ignition, or strange electrical problems like the headlamps flickering on and off may appear. Either way, the correct solution is to replace all or part of the ignition switch.
Probably the most difficult part of the whole procedure is the removal of the switch from the dashboard. On later cars, the switch is hidden behind a large, circular plastic disc. To remove this disc, simply unscrew it from the dash. On the earlier cars, there is a small plastic ring that needs to be unscrewed in a similar manner. Once the ring is removed, you can see the ignition switch assembly.
The switch itself is comprised of two separate sections, one that holds the key and the lock mechanism, and another that contains a somewhat complicated electrical switch that controls the starter and the other electrical systems of the car. The good news is that the electrical portion of the ignition switch can easily be replaced on 1970-89 911s. Typical cost of this part is about $55. Earlier cars will have to make do with finding a good used switch, as new ones are no longer available. If your key doesn’t turn too well in the ignition, then chances are you have a worn out tumbler. You can attempt to rekey and refurbish the tumbler yourself (see Project 76 on lock rekeying for more details), but the process can be quite difficult. It requires that you drill out a pin that has been pressed into the housing. If you make a mistake, you can damage the entire assembly. In other words, the ignition switch assembly wasn’t really designed to be taken apart.
Once you can see the ignition switch, you can probably clearly figure out why the next step is the hardest in this procedure. The switch is bolted to the frame of the car with what’s known as a break-off bolt. While this may help deter thieves, it also makes your task a lot harder to accomplish. To remove these bolts, take a die grinder or Dremmel tool and grind off the top of the head. Once the heads of the bolts are gone, you should be able to pull out the switch. In some cases, you can also grind a slot into the top of the bolt, and use a large screwdriver to remove the bolts. Removing the steering wheel will probably give you a bit more room to work (see Project 92).
Once you have the bolts removed, you can now crawl under your dashboard and remove the switch. Begin by loosening up the nut that holds the ignition switch onto the steering wheel lock. On some cars, you may not need to loosen this nut up, as the switch may just slide out of position. Disconnect the large 1.5” electrical plug from the ignition switch. The entire assembly should be able to be removed from the car now. You may have to negotiate a path through the maze of wires and cables that run underneath the dash.
Once you have the switch out, it’s very easy to replace the electrical portion. Simply unscrew the two screws that hold it to the back of the switch, and replace it with a new one. The switch has a locating pin cast into the housing, so there is only one way that it can be put back together.
Replacing the electrical portion could most certainly solve some ignition and starting problems. Electrical systems flickering on and off as you turn the key are a good clue that your switch is worn. Also, a bad switch sometimes causes unexplainable starting problems where the starter coil doesn’t even click. I even had one car that wouldn’t shut off the starter after the engine kicked over. Both the engine and the starter kept running together – even after I had removed the key!
If you are planning on rekeying your ignition key, get ready for a very difficult job. In order to remove the tumbler assembly, you need to carefully drill out the small pin that is located on the side of the tumbler housing. Make sure that you use a sharp drill bit, and be prepared to spend some money for a new ignition switch if you happen to mess yours up.
The replacement process for the ignition switch is pretty straightforward, except for the final installation of the switch into the rear of the dashboard. You should use new original equipment break-off bolts that are commonly available from your local parts dealer. The heads of the bolts will break off automatically when you torque them down. Or, if you are going to remove the switch again, use regular bolts.

Picture 1: From the factory, the ignition switch is bolted into the dashboard with break-away bolts. If you’re lucky, the previous owner has already replaced the ignition switch at least once, and the bolts have already been removed. When replacing the switch back into the dashboard, you can attach it with four break-off bolts.
Picture 2: The view from underneath the dashboard affords us a look at the ignition switch and its electrical connections. It’s nearly impossible to remove the electrical portion of the switch without removing the entire assembly. Make sure that you loosen the steering wheel lock bolt on the left before you attempt to remove the switch.
Picture 3: Shown here is the electrical portion of the switch removed from the remainder of the assembly. After many years, the electrical portion is usually what wears out, resulting in intermittent starting problems with the ignition key.

[This message has been edited by Wayne at Pelican Parts (edited 06-10-2001).]

[beepbeep]

Wayne you are an angel!
I just came home from a garage, after some 4+ hr session, just to find your article on a BB. I tried to get rid of the plastic disc, but i didn't know i need to unscrew it. I'll go down again to take another look (i don't know if i have break-off bolts or not.)

Mine problem is electrical and not mechanical, so it's electric portion of the switch that's making problems. Starter relay doesn't even click.

.........

3 hrs. later

.........


I took a look at electrical-schematics and decided to go with external starter-switch until i get electrical part of ignition-lock. I just soldered it in parallel so now i have small switch hanging under dash so i can start the car. Actually, i'm wondering if installing it permanently @ right side of steering wheel (there is vacant "aux"-hole there) would be a good idea. You know, real racing stuff...fuel-pump switch and engine-starter switch...

Is this going to lower value of my car?

Anyway, thanx a zillion!

[Doug Zielke]

Sure Wayne...keep on tempting and teasing us with snippets of your book. How about telling those cats in Hong Kong to get off the stick and get it over here pronto!

------------------
Doug
'81 SC Coupe (aka: "Blue Bomber")
Canada West Region PCA
members.home.net/zielke/911SC.htm

[tbitz]

The above just happened to me.

I was driving from Montreal (Grand Prix weekend) back to Ottawa and I stoped after 2hrs of driving at a corner store.

I try and start the car and no click, nothing. Not the battery as the lights remain on when the key is in the start position.

I had to push start it to get going. After I got home. I stop the engine, and then it started OK.



------------------
Tony
'78 911SC

[Roland Kunz]

Hello

The electric switches have two versions, Early switches will not fit in later units.

In emergencys you can file off or make from two switches one.

An very simple way ( OK only for honest mechanics all others know anyhow ) is geting the new switch and remove the connector from the old unit. let it hang down and insert the new switch. Use a screwdriver as a key.

This is a fast way for troubleshooting or geting out off areas where the gangsters use similar technics.


The other proplem seems to be a weak starter selenoid. Change the whole starter unit.
If the starterswitch in front will not work sometimes a remotestart from the enginewireloomconnector does the trick.

If not let it sit some time to cool down.

Grüsse

[Rob McKibbon]

Thank-you Wayne! I've been searching all for an hour or two learning about repairing a short in my ignition switch. I can see why some seasoned members asked me to search first, before starting a new thread! I've read alot of threads looking for this "complete" info; now very happy to have it.
Q?: Is there any way of taking the real good threads and making them easier to find? I rated this one 5 stars so others will find it easier, but it seems to be a missing component of the BBS.

I've got a short in my switch - every so often I'd have to reach up and wiggle the backside of switch until the starter kicked in - usually when you have a new passenger and it causes some embarassment that your Pcar won't start? Nevertheless, I left it this way, knowing that once I tear at this switch I'd better be prepared not to drive the car until I get it fixed. Anyway, it's now a winter project and I'm ready to get after it.

I'm also adding white faced gauges. This should be interesting too, since the existing ones work perfectly fine? I just love the white faced ones. I downloaded and printed all the Pelican Tech info from the site first, read up on the procedure and then bought the faces. It's gong to be a fun job, just hope I don't screw it up?

I've got a loose bulb connection on one of my brakelight too, that will need a look at?

So thanks for the great info, got it printed out and will make sure I'm ready for a finiky evening laying on my back looking up under the dash for some tiny little screws?

Rob
P.S. I've already got your book on order......