THE ABSOLUTE WORST JOB TO DO ON THE 911

[Wayne 962]

Ok. Most of you know that I've written a new book, 101 Projects for the Porsche 911 <- Subtle plug, so I have at least a whole bunch of experience taking apart and putting this cars back together. I've torn apart engines, and rebuilt them too. Also done a lot of work on 914s, 356s, etc...

Ok, I think that I have found the most frustrating and difficult job ever! It's got to be replacing the headliner on the 911. Ok, you have to remove the glass (without breaking it), difficult task number one. Then you have to install the new headliner. Make one cutting mistake, and you will be out about 4-5 hours of time, and about $100 for a new headliner. Not much room for error. Then you have to reinstall the glass.

Who designed this crappy solution, and how in heaven's name did they assemble these cars at the factory. For the side windows alone, it took me almost an entire two hours sitting in front of the TV to get the metal trim threaded into the new rubber seal. And after that, I couldn't move my hand, it was so cramped. Then, try putting it back into the car. Talk about repeating a task 4-5 times that takes a lot of energy. Add to that the fact that installing the windows back into the car has a tendency to messup the edges of the headliner!

And try getting the metal trim back into the front or rear window? Forget about it. It would seem that if you don't remove the trim EXTREMELY carefully and preserve it's actual, exact shape, then it becomes nearly impossible (just spent 5 hours trying) to fit it back into the seal that goes around the glass. And don't even talk about the defroster wires!

I've done a lot of things to cars that were pretty difficult (cutting, welding in trunks, gas tank cleaning/replacement, etc., 914-6 conversion, engine rebuilds). I gotta say that of all the stuck bolts, nuts, stripped and broken head studs, broken axles, etc., this headliner/glass removal project is by far the ABSOLUTE WORST AND MOST FRUSTRATING PROJECT THAT YOU CAN ATTEMPT!

Don't try this at home, unless you have plenty of time, money and patience. Try cleaning your headliner first.

We have a somewhat subtle motto here at Pelican: learn from our mistakes so that you won't make them yourself. Based on this project, I wouldn't recommend replacing the headliner yourself. For someone who hasn't done it before (this was indeed the first time for me), I would estimate total hours to be at about 40-50, the frustration factor to be 10/10, and the risk of damaging something (glass, metal trim, or headliner) to be very, very high.

-Wayne

[Zendalar]

Hmmh, don't do that. You frighten me. I am about to get my car painted and I was thinking of stripping the car bare. This would include the removal of all the windows, as a bonus, this is targa, so the rear window is not so nice to take off i think...

//Zen

[GeorgeK]

I have done that, twice! to the same car!
Wayne's right, it's a nightmare. He was kind enough not to dwell on the creases that the headliner develops as you glue it with uneven tension, on the contact glue that gets everywhere (nice new SHORT hairdo, dude...).
Jokes aside, I was terrified at the cost of the liner, until I found this large retailer of all things for buses. I have bought enough fabric - the exact good one - for 2 liners for about 40$.
Next one on the line is a WHITE one. Spare yourselt the aggravation and do it in black. Everytime.
GeorgeK

[orbmedia]

What does a professional do to make the job easier?

[SeaDweller]

Nothing can take the place of experience when it comes to this type of project. No book or manual will do you any good, believe me.

Years ago, I tried to replace the headliner in my Isuzu Trooper. I pulled all the glass out, set the headliner in place (a factory headliner to be exact), and my jaw dropped. These things are not an exact fit that you can just throw in. Even the factory headliner I bought simply had extra material all the way around, and special cuts have to be made around curves, corners, etc. Furthermore, in my case there were integrated metal rods that supported it.

I ended up driving the truck to a top shop, with all the windows out (including the windshield, and boy did I get funny looks), and watched in amazement as the guy installed the headliner in about two hours. He knew exactly what cuts to make for every curve and corner, how tight to pull it, and exactly where to glue it to keep everything straight. The nifty little spray gun for the contact cement really is a gem!

I agree with everyone else, this is truly a job for a professional. I'd prefer to rebuild an engine twice than to tackle this.

I too would be very interested to know how this is done at the factory!

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Michael
'78 911SC Euro

[not_sure]

I was quoted 260.00 by a shop by my house plus the price of the headliner. When I found a headliner for 40 bucks I thought how great this is going to be, until I found out the install charge. I guess Ill go a bit longer with no headliner.

[RarlyL8]

Had it done on mine after the repaint.
You've got to take your time. Clamp the liner in place first and let it stretch overnight. Apply a little heat with a hair dryer if needed. Use a spray glue gun.

My vote for the worst jobs is a toss up between changing out 20+ year old torsion bars or replacing a bad engine oil cooler with the engine still in the car. I give these tasks to the professionals.
You gotta take a lot of "chill out" breaks.

[roGERK]

OK so I have no experience of headliner, but thanks - should I replace the Targa with a coupe I'll check the headliner very carefully!

Personally the worst job on a 911 I've ever done is replacing the pedal cluster and throttle linkage. There's no room at all down there, you get cramps from the weird yoga type positions you have to assume, and everything is difficult and frustrating!

- roGER

[Obin Robinson]

Originally posted by Wayne at Pelican Parts:
Who designed this crappy solution, and how in heaven's name did they assemble these cars at the factory.
-Wayne

Wayne, i think whoever designed that is related to the total genius that designed those wonderful VDO odometers.

VDO.. bringing you 2 decades, and a half million Porsches with unknown mileage.

obin

[GIBSON]

Wayne, I just had my headliner replaced in my 73 sunroof coupe. The guy who did it is a good friend and said if I helped the price would be lower. Of course, I "helped". He had the liner already sewn up and ready to go. The front and rear window seals were
good so we worked the rubber out of the channels and had the glass out in 15 minutes.
The trick he used which really saved time was to cut up 3/4 inch sections of rubber
trim pieces which have metal substructures (similar to the pieces used on the inside tops of doors, next to where the glass slides up and down, they are a press fit and held in place by a substructure of metal). Anyway, these pieces are then placed on the headliner edges at the body to temporarily hold it in place to check for centering etc.
This really makes the job easier. Starting at the back top center, line up the headliner, holding it with these clips. Stretch and glue from there. A heat gun in tight spots like the A and B pillars really help. We started at 9am and were finished by
2pm. Always cut the sunroof hole last, that may seem obvious but it's often done the other way around and it's really a big pain that way. Yes it's a tough job but really not too bad. Put the glass back in in direct sunlight after letting the glass sit in the sun to warm up the rubber.
Just some thoughts, it is really a nice change. One more thing, never buy anything but the german material, nothing else works well.

Bruce Herrmann
73 911S coupe

[Wayne 962]

Ok, five hours of sleep later, I'm still real pissed. Combine with that the sore ankle from stepping in a dumb pothole at Pelican...

If you do want to do this yourself (I suppose I'll do a tech article on it) here are some things that are an ABSOLUTE MUST!

- Save the old headliner, and cut the new one to semi-match the old one (I threw mine away accidentally, and also ripped it on the way out)

- When you take out the glass - don't cut the seal unless it's really, really trash. You can resave the seal (and your time by hours).

- The metal trim which is very expensive must be removed from the window as if it is made of glass. DON'T BEND it at all, thinking, Oh, I'll just bend it back later on. Five hours of bending, and I'm not buying new trim.

- The rear window is the toughest = 2 man job. The side windows are horrible too, but this rear one is the worst.

- Thread the wires first into the rear window after you put on the seal to the window. Then place the trim on. You can't get the trim on the window when it's in place in the frame (at least I can't and the people I've asked can't)

- Office Depot / Staple. Get about 30-40 of those small binder clips (you know the black ones that are made out of metal) and use them to clip the headliner every 1/2" as you glue it.

- Work on gluing the headliner in very small sections at a time. Let the section COMPLETELY dry before removing the clips and moving on. Done properly, the headliner gluing should take about 10-12 days (15-20 sections glued)

- Don't start with the sunroof piece. Although it looks like a no-brainer, it's a bit tricky to glue this without wrinkles.

- Make not of where the lamps and coat hooks go. Guessing later on by looking a picture is not a really good way to go.

- Make sure that you don't get glue on your new headliner, or in your hair. Don't ask me why I know this.

- If you can avoid it, don't remove the metal trim from the glass. Doing so will add hours to the job.

- Don't be sloppy with your cuts. One small mistake can completely ruin the previous 10 tens work = start over.

- Don't think that the windshield (20-years old) can take any stress at all. Work with it with the strength of a 5 or ten year old. Any more force will break it (don't ask me how I know this).

There you go. Some constructive tips for the sadistic 911 owners out there. Rebuiling my motor was easy compared to this project!

-Wayne

[Leland Pate]

I think scraping the undercoating off of the bottom side of a 25 yr old 911 would be equally bad.

[Wayne 962]

That would be bad and ugly too, but there isn't too much that you can easily destroy. If your head isn't with you, you can messup the glass, headliner, not to mention dropping tools & glue on your paint!

-Wayne

[GIBSON]

One more thing that helped me, before installing the new headliner, put the screws for the sunvisors, coathangers etc. in their holes. That way, when you are ready to reinstall thsese things you can easily feel the screw, push on the headliner and the screw head will start to emerge through the nearest perforation in the headliner. It really makes it easy to put these things back in. Also, be careful when you are using a razor blade to trim off the excess headliner not too cut into the paint. This seems trivial but remember that a small cut
in the paint can be a rust-starter.

Bruce Herrmann
73 911S

[tommywar]

Wayne,

OT: When will your 101 Projects book be available? By the way, thanks for such a good website.

Tom Warren
'75 S, IROC bodywork w/ 3.0 (under construction)

[Eric Coffey]

Yeah, headliners are no fun, but have you ever installed a complete electrical wiring harness, including re-routing through the center tunnel? Trust me, it is NO fun, and has got to be the worst job, at least if you rate it by the number of hours worked, beers consumed, and curse words spoken!

-Eric

[dtw]

Well, between Wayne and freefly, I do believe I am ready to say that my 911 restoration is UP FOR SALE!! Just kidding. But headliner (no sunroof, thank goodness) and wiring harness are two items I will be installing this fall or next spring, as the project tools along.

Any tips for threading that harness through the tunnel, fly?

Wayne, thanks for sharing your experience with us, I've got to install a windshield in a 930 in a couple weeks. The owner was convinced that the trim goes in AFTER mounting the glass/seal in the frame-now I've got more ammo for my argument

Cheers,
-d

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Dave
1972 911T (E motor) RSR replica project
http://members.nbci.com/dtwinters/garage/

[83 sc euro cab]

how about headliners on a convertible 911 sc?

that shouldn't be as bad since there is no window to remove, right?

[911pcars]

Anybody ever remove the horsehair (?) insulation from the floor pan, then wire brush every last speck of surface rust down to bare metal with a full face mask, long sleeves and hat so the broken pieces of the cupped wire brush that fly off in all directions don't spear into your skin and scalp..... in hot weather, and your back and elbows are hurting because you're doing this on your knees that are aching because you couldn't find those construction-type knee pads since the last time you sanded dry wall compound along 40 ft of lower bedroom wall?

I haven't either.

Yes I have.

Sherwood Lee
http://members.rennlist.org/911pcars

[dtw]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by 911pcars:
[B]Anybody ever remove the horsehair (?) insulation from the floor pan, then wire brush every last speck of surface rust down to bare metal with a full face mask...


Helllll NO. I dipped that rascal and let "better living through chemistry" take care of all that junk. But splitting seams to scrub out dip solution and hunting down potential future chemical time bombs is pretty fun.

Hmmm...OK how about this one. Laying upside down in my 911 with my head under the dash, drilling the steering column bolts out. 100 degree heat plus full protective clothing, two rusty studs digging into my back, and choking on fumes from spraying lubricant on the drill bit every 10 seconds?

Why oh why didn't I buy a Honda Civic and slap some lowering springs and stickers on it instead...

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Dave
1972 911T (E motor) RSR replica project
http://members.nbci.com/dtwinters/garage/