Is the consensus really becoming that a Z3 is cheaper and more reliable than a Carrera so he should stick with it? While complex for it's time, the 911 doesn't have nearly the amount of electrical wizardry to go wrong as the car ages.

I bought my 84 1.5 years ago. It isn't perfect, but has only needed tires and an alternator and I drive it every day as my only car. I think the Motronic fuel injection you get with a 3.2 is worth the minimally higher buy-in over an SC with CIS. I carry a cell phone and my AAA card, but who doesn't? Haven' t needed either yet.

I think you're just playing it safe - live a little! At least go drive one - there are tons for sale right now.

As long as there are no expensive surprises, a Carrera is just about bullet proof.

Expensive surprises would include broken head studs, worn cams due to incorrect oil, excessive oil consumption, the need for a new clutch, worn syncros in the gear box, or deciding you really need to make the air conditioning work.

A good 911 will most likely have had a top end job by 125K, and new studs. It may or may not have fresh suspension components, but it should feel tight. It should shift out pretty smoothly, and not be graunchy or balky. It may or may not have upgrades, which I would want.

If you get a good one, that is well set up, and it suits you, you will be hooked for life.

ONLY consider a Porsche if you can do your own work.

Let me say that again - ONLY consider a Porsche if you can do your own work.

This means you have a garage, or a friend with a garage, or access to a garage somewhere where/when you may need it. This means you have a decent set of metric hand tools (at a minimum). This means you're reasonably mechanically savvy and can find your way around an engine without it being like demystifying the Dead Sea Scrolls. This means you aren't afraid to research, learn and apply such knowledge to your own car.

If you depend on (paid) mechanics to keep your Porsche running at all times, double the annual cost of ownership. Right off the bat. You'd be utterly insane (IMHO) to ever do this.

The "cost" of P-car ownership is not the entry fee (that's reasonably affordable), it's the upkeep. If you pay someone else for this, you'll end up hating "that infernal money pit" in short order. If you DIY and only pay for parts occasionally, it's much more bearable, though still certainly not something I'd consider economical. You also need to consider the TIME (not just the money) it takes to do repairs, especially if you're depending on the car as your only means of getting around. BTDT - it really sucks when you have only one car, it's 8:00 on a Sunday night (before a work week), your car is in a hundred pieces and will take at least 5 hours to put back together or worse, you can't source a part you discover you need as you "get in there" and have no way to get it even if you could, because you've got the car in pieces and nobody's around to give you a ride down to the store.

P-cars are ONLY recommended for those who can do their own work and who don't mind having them be "INOP" occasionally.

Spooked
 

Dr. Mitch be afraid, very afraid. My 911 SC is a white hole in the garage I pour money into. Jeff is correct the cost of entry (fixed) is not high, the cost of ownership of an old 911 (variable) rivals that of airplanes and large boats in my opinion. I do all my own work except machining parts to save money and have spent on average 25% of the purchase price of the car every year on maintenance and upgrades.

The one thing that drives me nuts is that some of the owners of SC's on this forum always try and drive down market values of the very car they own? For example someone says they want to sell their car for $16,000.00 and you get numerous people telling the seller its only worth $9,000.00 - 10,000.00. WTF is this about?

Read Wilkinson's book before you leap. Yes driving a 911 is fun but so is owning a lake cabin and they appreciate over time. Done venting now.

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There sure is a wide variety of opinion and advice. I think the first piece of advice I must take is...go drive one...or three...or six.

This implies you don't do your own work, or much of it. So, let me ask the question a slightly different way - Would you buy and rely on any other 25+ year old car as a daily driver?

Things wear out. Any car this old, no matter how well it was made, has parts and systems that wear out and require replacement. If you do your own work (and buy parts from Pelican, of course) it is not excessively financially burdensome, but it still eats evenings, weekends, etc., not to mention the time the car is off the road.

However, if you rely on a mechanic to do the work, it is common to think that virtually any repair work on a 911 will cost $1000 or more.

Sure, it can be done, but for a dd, I would suggest something newer like a used Boxster, or even a 1999+ 911.

Seriously, search the prices for used "996" model type 911's and you may be pleasantly surprised.

I think I'd strongly advise against a Boxster or a 996. Both cars are very difficult to work on by a home mechanic, and much more expensive at a professional shop, which is most likely going to be a dealer for those models.

The newer the Porsche you get, the more expensive will be the repair rates and the more difficult it will be to do the work yourself.

I relied on my '86 as my only car for 2 years, but it spent almost every weekday parked at the airport. It was reliable ONLY inasmuch as I spent a lot of time and $$$ keeping it that way.

My DD for the last 10 years has been a 1975 911 - the same car that DRMITCH is looking at. Everyone’s situation is different. Good advice here is only use a 911 for a DD if you:
Do your own maintenance
Don’t get stuck in stop-and-go traffic (the heavy clutch gets tiring)
Don’t need A/C, a radio, heat, defrost, etc.
I’m lucky. I have a short commute, and rarely get stuck in traffic. My car has been completely reliable, and I can’t image having a car with less repair cost. I rarely fix anything on the car because nothing ever breaks. I do however get cold in the winter, as the car doesn’t get hot until I arrive at work – and the defroster isn’t anything to brag about. I wouldn’t recommend a 911 as a DD for someone that isn’t used to old cars. Newer cars are definitely more convenient, but not as fun.

My schedule does not allow for home repairs. I'm on the road by 6 a.m. M-F, home at 7 p.m. and am usually on the road 2 or 3 Saturdays a month teaching seminars. I barely have time to eat, sleep, go to the gym and empty the trash so, as much as I might enjoy wrenching my own car and as willing as I'd be to do it, I simply do not have the time. I recently installed a throttle body position sensor on the Z and saved myself nearly $200 on the mechanic's quote but it was a 10 minute procedure that required taking out one screw and opening a clip after consulting the Bentley manual. I install bars and braces and minor mods and enjoy it but I would not, at this stage in life/lifestyle, have the ability to spend weekends in my garage working on a motor. So again, I am very grateful for the input of time and expertise from you all but it doesn't look good for my Porsche dream.

Rex: sounds great but I have a 50 mile round trip commute M-F and the 25 miles home is at 6 p.m. so I'm in wonderful stop-and-kinda-go L.A. traffic all the time.

The last truly old car I had was a 3 speed, Highland Green '67 Mustang coupe that was my DD from 1979 to 1984. I miss it to this day.

Dr. Mitch,

Go down to Van Nuys and talk to Dave at TRE. He's a old school P car wrench and are in the know someone with a car for sale from time to time. Real honest guy no BS. Many here would say the same thing. I would get a 3.0 or 3.2 car unless its a smoking deal in that 2.7 car.

Thanks, look 171. I'll do that. Might as well see what he's got to say.

Daily driver
 

I have a 1979 930 that is a daily driver.

But I do work at home.

EPS

I have a '78 SC that I bought in very good condition, and so far the only expenses I've paid are oil changes that I do myself, and a tuneup, which I did myself (didn't take very long, and was surprisingly easy). I've had it a year and a half so far, and it has never once given me any trouble or issues of any kind. It was my only vehicle for about the first year or so, and I never really ran into any serious issues where it wasn't adequate enough to carry anything or whatnot. Personally, I'd say if you can get a 3.0 or 3.2 that's in great shape, and passes a PPI with flying colors, then go for it. They're very fun cars, dead-on reliable as long as you take care of them and just do the regular maintenence, and it'll put a smile on your face every time you drive it.

Well, since everyone else is throwing in their $0.02, I'll add mine.

I bought, on a whim, without knowing of this forum or the excellent advice here (like get a PPI FOR SURE!), a '75 targa. The car has an earlier 2.2 in it, some rust (of course) and had a lot of oil leaks. It was on Craig's List and I paid $3000 for it.

I drive this car almost every day, but I've also bashed my knuckles and cursed pretty loud fixing things on it and chasing down all the oil leaks. The next step will be an engine drop at some point to do the main seals, because I've fixed everything else I can without that kind of commitment.

Despite the fact that I trust the targa as a daily driver, I'd never use it for longer trips. I have another car, an Audi wagon, which is much better in some ways because I can haul a lot of stuff, I have heat in the winter and AC in the summer.

In other words, I'd never trust my 911 to be my only car. Never. And it wouldn't work for me because I do need the hauling capacity of the wagon regularly.

Interestingly enough, though, this summer the targa was a great back-up to the Audi when I was chasing down a mysterious oil leak on that car, and wasn't driving the wagon.

But the snow will come, and then the 911 is done. I like heat, and I like all-wheel drive. But that's because I live where I do. A lotta snow here. Your situation may be different. But I've found that rear wheel drive cars suck in snow, and there's no way I'd rely solely on one in Vail to get around, even with snow tires.

I'd suggest that you keep saving up your cash and keep looking. You may find a drivable "fixer-upper" that could be a second car for you, something to enjoy on the weekends and invest in when you have the time and cash.

Good luck.

---

Tom '75 targa

If you are honestly planning on driving a 35 year old car (or even a 20 year old one) as a daily driver, without a backup, you're crazy or looking for trouble.

My 911 has been the most fun car I've owned by far, and a tie for the most fun I've ever driven, period (I'd rate it even with an '08 Z06 Corvette). But it has also cost me the most time and dollars per mile driven of anything I've ever owned, and by a factor of 3 or 4. If I didn't do my own wrenching, I'd have to sell it.

What kind of condition did you buy your car in? Mine's 10 years older than yours and has cost me very minimal (other than gas, it is a bit of a thirsty car.)

drive your daily until you can afford a toy, an older 911 is not a daily driver ( for everyone ) and as others have said they are for the most part not the cheapest cars to keep running, i was putting in a lot of hours at work this summer and was quoted 1600 dollars for an oil and filter change with a valve adjust from a p shop ; wound up doing it my self for about 300 with tranny swepco fluid change. my car was out of commission 3 weekends by the time i was done but that ways 3-4 hrs on Sundays only (i am not a mechanic) i am mechanical and found most of the info i needed on the forum and had the lap top in the garage thru the process.

this could be a perfect opportunity to say thank you to the board, thank you... .:cool:

The point is that the newer cars won't need as much work.

Sure, they are more complicated than the old Carrera 3.2's & SC's, but not more complicated than a newer car like a Z3.

In fact, sometimes the newer cars are easier to diagnose, thanks to ODB-II.

It's also likely they've passed through fewer owners than the older cars, and thus have fewer chances for repair screw-ups, poor maintenance, track abuse, etc.

The shop that I use (for the kind of things I can't do myself due to lack of the proper equipment, like alignment and corner balancing) certainly works on the newer Porsches and charges the same hourly rate for both.

Would I use my '87 3.2 as a dd? No.

But a well-maintained 996 or 997? My current dd is a 1996 car with close to 150k miles - my trusty Saab 900SE turbo coupe. Yes, it is much more complicated than my Porsche, but rock-solid reliable and with the small amount of extra boost I'm running, the high-performance exhaust, and good tires, it's quite entertaining. When it is finally used up, and my kids are finally out of college... yeah, I could live with a 996 or 997 as a dd.

Seriously Steve?...80k invested and you won't go beyond flatbed range? Please tell me you are being sarcastic. I must be a wild man 'cause I've driven mine (for fun) to Charlotte NC (twice), and Washington DC. And this is a car that's no where near as sorted as yours (not at 80k invested...yet...engine rebuild in progress so I'm catching up:p).

I totally agree that for a one-car person who needs a rock solid reliable commuter a 30 year old Porsche is a poor choice.

I will respectfully disagree, for the majority of my adult life, I have driven older(20+ year old) cars by choice. I have had a couple of "newer" cars and they left me with my thumb out more than the older cars. I would consider myself an old car "expert" and I am much more impressed with a 35 year old Porsche than a 10 year old Japanese or Sweedish car, the non-euro cars had their wiring harnesses and switches falling apart long before the car was done running. The only electrical issue I have had with my 35 year old Porsche was the infamous CIS primary wire, that's it, everything else on the car works like factory day 1. The best part is, with a FSM and hand tools nothing is out of reach mechanically. It really is a basic machine, well executed.
eric
P.S. I was spring loaded to go help a buddy out with his crop dusting operation this summer, he is in WI and I am in CA, I was gonna take the Porsche, never thought twice.

i would think boxter or 968, 944, Kevin

i think the risk of failure is simply greater on an old car. on the flip side, once you've worked them out you can certainly fix some of the smaller issues that would leave you stranded on a new car & get back on the road easily.
still a bit of a gamble. then again, how difficult is it to hire a small car for a few days or find someone to tag along? btw my alternative is a motorbike (Aprilia RSV) ...

Excellent, according to the PPI :rolleyes:. There was an initial burst of catch-up on neglected maintenance. And there is always at least $1000 in random parts breakage every year. Car is usually down for 2 - 4 weeks in the summer, as parts from PP take 1 week to arrive. Usage is about 5K miles / yr.

I believe I just read "mid 80s SC".....That would be a 3.2 Carrera, I'm pretty sure. Just as a thought, I think a fairly regularly driven (records a must) Carrera, not beaten to death, great PPI, low miles (80-100K or less) would be a very dependable DD. As long as it hasn't got original tires.....and a Miata is in no way near as much fun as a 911, sorry, especially a Targa, but for all year duty, a coupe would be preferable, no? Maybe a cheap SC, and then if it croaks, just buy another..... ;) Personally I don't want to hear about Boxsters, Miatas, Subarus, BMW.........they ain't 911s. :p

True, but a 911 isn't a Miata either. Consider that I have a hot SC and a supercharged Miata. A top end job on a 911 engine will cost twice what a brand new crate engine for a Miata will cost at 2 grand.

For many years I ran old sports cars as my DDs. I always had two cars on the road, so that no type of malfunction could keep me from going to work, that little thing that pays for the cars. I continue to maintain that anyone who cannot afford a Miata and a 911 cannot afford to run a 911 as a DD. Having two cars in this situation is not a luxury, and it can actually save you time and money in the long run because you are not obligated to fix anything yesterday to get to work today.

I myself would not hesitate to run my 911 or any of my older Porsches on a daily basis, and do in fact take them all over the country. I do not however put them in the position where they are my sole means of transport. Oddly enough however, my 1980 928 became my work vehicle several years ago, when my 4 year old truck had transfer case problems. It hauled tools and materials like a champ for most of the summer. A classic example of a backup vehicle in action, with a pleasantly ironic twist.

911s are wonderful cars, and very reliable if properly sorted. But I did just resort to putting cams in the SC, and it isn't a better car or faster than a supercharged 1.6 Miata. Both cars are very engaging to drive.

Casio or Rolex ? Both tell the time equally well. I happen to like the different qualities of 911s and Miatas. But that is not the current topic.

Well put...putting together everything that's been said here, I think the thing to do is keep the Z3, do all the performance/suspension mods I've been putting off and pick up a 911 when I get to the point I can afford to have both. Or maybe, and I know it's not the same car as a 911 either but...maybe a 914 as a second car. Now let's see what the conversation becomes!

Nothing wrong with that. My first Porsche was a 85 944 that I bought for $ 4,500. Got me in the door and I really enjoyed it. I put a ton of work into it (which is basically how I learned to do it) and ended up selling it for more than my original purchase price.

It will definitely somewhat satisfy the urge. But the desire for the 911 will always stay strong in the background.

i think you should buy a prius

Yeah, thanks...I'll look into the Prius...as for the previous post before the Prius, I appreciate your experience. That's exactly my idea, a foot in the door to Porsche ownership. One thing I really enjoy about (most) car guys is that we all understand the joy, the lust, the rush that a variety of cars offer and can appreciate what each car has to offer. More than any other marque, I think, Porsche has a mystique, a siren song. Not all of us who are enthusiasts have the means and/or the time to start with our "dream" Porsche, whether we crave an original 550 Spyder (good luck), an '80's "beater" project, a 914 or a brand new GT-3. I may never fulfill my Porsche dream (and that bugs the hell out of me) but I appreciate the fraternity of car guys who are always willing to offer their time, their experience, their advice and guidance. I have experienced the same thing on the Z3 and Miata forums and have received a wealth of input from MGB guys when I was looking at those as well. If I had Bruce Meyer's money, I'd happily embrace a 911, a 550 repro, a Cobra, a Lotus Elise, a Lotus Elan, an early Jag E-type, a Cayman...they'd all be in my garage...all very different cars but all offering a unique and thrilling driving experience I'm sure. Would I have a Miata, a Z3 and a 914? Probably not. But I don't have that kind of money. So, I want to experience what I can afford. Thanks again.

Keep the Z3, if you can afford a Z3 you can afford a 911, keep thinking of reasons not to have a 911. The 911 is a lifestyle, you can always hang out here:
http://www.pelicanparts.com/bmw/catalog/Z3-Z4-Series_Main.htm
I always love it when Z3,4 and 12s swoop by me when I am driving to work, showing me how fast their cars are, then slow down 300 yards ahead. Driving a 911 at the speed limit is fun too, I notice the guys driving mini vans, looking at the 911, I can almost imagine them thinking, "I wish I could be driving that, instead of this". The best part of owning a 911 is on a stretch of road with no one around for miles, driving at a fun pace, you look in the mirror and find yourself smiling and think, this is the way a car should be! Enjoy your Z3, it is faster, handles better than my 911, and if you gave it to me and 25K for my car, I would sell the Z3 and buy another 911. 911s are a lifestyle, Z3s and all the other sports cars are fast, competent, and I am sure fun to drive, but they lack the soul of a 911. I spent a large portion of my adult life, wanting a 911, my only regret is waiting for so long.
Good luck with your compromise!
eric
P.S. I installed a new stereo/CD player, and never turn it on, even on the most boring stretch of highway, can you say that about your Z3?

ok since you are a german car guy forget the prius and go with the Rabbit

hey if you cant have a laugh at treads like these then they are worthless

Go for It!!
 

There are many considerations..


The cars you had and the 911 are no match...

In many ways..

First the driving

Second the Maintenance

Third The love you need..


A Vintage Porsche needs tons of love and money, it doesnt matter how pristine it is, you will allways need to do something to the car.

It is some kind of callenge to bring one of this cars to shape and make it a day by day driver.


So if you are used to cars that are like having your couch with wheels, and not requiring every day check ups and you just forget about them until some light comes on the dash....

Then you shouldnt get a 911...they need lots of care and tons of details checked, you will feel the car and as you get to know the way they work will know by driving and feeling if something is wrong you need a source of parts such as our host, and may be many mechanics and garages of your trust to fix anything comes up with the car.

You must be some kind of mixture between pilot, mechanic, and doctor to really enjoy a 911.

I´ve had a 1978 SC and a 75 911 S with a turbo traslpant...this cars where such an adventure.. many , many experiences ready to share there...let me know if you need a piece of advice...

Search for SC rather than a S car because of many many technical reasons that will keep you floating with your budget and expectations


Think about it, and if you decide to go for the adventure, you also have this great forums as a resource to move on as you feel jammed with a 911 issue.

SmileWavy
MiCk

I agree with your statements about the MX 5 (Miata) and the 911.
I have solved a similar dilemna by buying a 93 MX5 for daily driving and a (actually 2 ) 911 SCs for weekend duties. I had a second dilemna-targa or coupe- and so bought one of each.
Total investment stiil less than the new 4wd and boat combo owned by most my friends.
I'm a have your cake and eat it too (with no money left over for coffee) kind of guy though.

Wow, so much info. I did have a laugh, thanks. Do I NEVER turn on my stereo? No. But there are many times and many miles I'd rather listen to the car than the stereo, this past Saturday pushing it through Mulholland being one of those days. Speaking of spirit, I think the Miata has more spirit than the Z3 and I plan to test drive a 911 and experience that spirit of which you speak which is no doubt far more interesting than the Miata. MKEDF, everything you said sounds great, providing I can supply both the time and the money, I love tinkering and making my car MY car...I'd love to hear of your adventures and experiences and advice with your SC...I'll see if I can PM you so you can talk to me directly. Thanks to everybody.