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considering ownership but spooked
Cliche, long-time dream of owning a 911, blah, blah, blah.
I am a one-car guy--don't have the money or space for a practical daily driver AND a toy. Since year 2000, I've owned a 95 Miata, a 2000 BMW Z3 2.3, a 99 Miata, a 98 Z3 2.8 and now a 97 Z3 1.9. I've had a blast with each in its own way. All have been reliable and affordable in terms of upkeep. But, I crave a Porsche and doubt I'll eve get over it unless I own one. Just found a 1975 911 with "all original parts, original engine, original tires" that needs upholstery and "minor" cosmetic paint and was garaged "for a long time." I haven't SEEN the car--this is just a listing a found this morning, after having an amazingly vivid dream last night in which I found a "beater" 911 that I loved. I really don't care so much about looks, as long as the car is mechanically sound. I love sports cars, I am an enthusiast but...can a guy who has comfortably afforded his Miatas and Z3's handle a 911 financially? I KNOW I'll love the car...as long as it's not bleeding me dry at the mechanic. |
The 2.7 engine had some issues.
How many miles? Has the 5 blade cooling fan been replaced with an 11 blade? Does it have thermal reactors? I think CA cars had them originally in 75. Do you have to keep them in CA? Any work done on the motor? You'd need a good PPI for sure. |
I highly recommend getting a Pre Purchase Inspection (PPI) from a reputable shop if you're at all interested in the car. That way you'll have some piece of mind about the car's mechanical state. Someone on the list can recommend a PPI shop in your area I'm sure.
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Price? Pics?
Get a PPI from a good porsche mechanic, probably not a dealer. Frankly, for a daily driver I would want at least a 964 or newer. (1990's and up) |
a 1975 car with original tires warrants a real close look. If you are not mechanically oriented, I would not choose this route.
Keep in mind this car could turn out to be the one you never sell....but the mid 80's SC might be a better choice for a DD. |
SC's and Carreras are great, relatively inexpensive drivers if they're maintained well.
The 3.0 and 3.2 are better engines than the 2.7. |
As above, a PPI is a must so you are not dealt a bad hand ($$$) to start with.
These are great cars, fun to drive and quite reliable if maintained and used regularly. But in the long run, you either have to be wealthy enough to afford a good mechanic, or be able and willing to work on it yourself. So if you can't work on it yourself, and enjoy doing the work, sounds to me like you're not ready for it just yet. Just my .02. |
I think a 3.2L is the way to go. You retain the "essence" of the 911, without the fickleness of the earlier cars, and they're SIMPLE to maintain. AC is an issue if you expect "new" car AC. I never used mine in my Cab, so I removed the system completely & saved the weight. The engines are stout, enough power to weight to be a lot of fun, get the looks wherever you go, keep their value nicely, the works.
I'd think a Targa or sunroof coupe would be nicer for a single-car, but for 3 season driving here in New England I drive my 911 Cab pretty much whenever I find an excuse. And sometimes when I don't have one, too. :) |
Lots of great SC's in your area for +-10K.
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I have an '83 and for what this is worth, I've had fewer problems with it in the past 15 years than any other car I've owned. Now, I don't put more than 3K miles per year on it (summers only), but it has been reasonably reliable. I also have a '91 Miata by the way, but haven't owned it long enough to compare reliability. My Miata is still new to me, but I have to admit for summer driving, I think it is more enjoyable than the 911. It isn't half the car the Porsche is though. The Porsche is built like a tank. The Miata feels like it was built to last 20 years.
I am not one of these guys who takes his car to a mechanic, but I am also not one to swap out an engine over a weekend either. I understand cars, and feel reasonably comfortable working on them, but I am far from a mechanic -- I'm actually a CFO during the day. Based on everything I've read, stay away from the pre-1978 SCs. You can get into an SC for very little money from what I have seen. I think $10K would get you a nice one. |
It looks like you've owned 5 cars since 2000. So it is highly likely you will get this car, spend a lot of money putting it right and then move on. Is that what you really want to do? Newer cars are not as demanding as a 34 year old 911. Better think twice.
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There was a 356 SC, but that's a different car. |
There's nothing wrong with a 2.7, provided it's been maintained well and kept cool. The 75+ 2.7 cars are prone to problems because the emissions rules changed for those model years, prompting Porsche to add the thermal reactors and switch from an 11-blade to a 5-blade fan. All this stuff makes more heat, which is great for emissions but terrible for the longevity of the engines. I'd be VERY leery of any 911 with the CA "smog nazi" package that hadn't been rebuilt or at the very least, retrofitted with an 11-blade fan and thermal reactor delete. And I'd have any of them checked to make sure there aren't any pulled head studs. If you're buying the car as a project, who cares. If it's going to be your DD, then I'd care a lot (a rebuild is expensive and will put your car out of commission for a while, if it's your only one...)
If I were a "one car only" kind of guy, it would never be a Porsche of ANY vintage. Seriously. If reliability is an issue and there's no way you can have a spare car, get a Toyota or a Honda - maybe a Miata if you don't mind the "gay" jokes. They're actually pretty fun cars. |
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If I was in California I'd shoot for a 1974 or earlier and not have to worry about smog again. (and you could hot rod! Woo Woo)
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I have a 1986 911 Coupe and LOVE it. 93k miles and it's the most reliable car I've ever owned (including our 2003 Honda and my 1997 Toyota Rav4). I work on the car myself, mostly, and simply love doing it. It's a simple car, easy to work on, great fun, with fantastic looks. This web site has helped me 1000 times and parts from Pelican are pretty cheap.
I'd look for a good 1984 (Carrera 3.2) or newer 911. SCs are great too, but are getting old now. If I found a great SC I'd jump on that. Good luck. |
There are so many problems with the 75-77 engines (weak cases, horrible smog stuff, etc. etc.), AND prices are so down on all these cars, it really doesn't make sense to not just eliminate those 3 years from your search.
That still gives a lot of years to choose from, between 1966 and 1989. |
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thanks to all so far
I thought the "gay jokes" comment on the Miata was funny...I've had a 95 and 99 and they are such great cars, I don't care what people might think. The new Motor Trend I think it was did a comparison of 10 cars, looking at rating them as DRIVER'S cars...stats were considered but were not the deciding factor. There was a large subjective component to their ratings. Porsche Cayman placed #1, Miata #3, beating Shelby Mustang GT, Corvette, BMW 135i and more. They are wonderful cars. They have appeared on so many different "best" lists, I don't know why the "gay car" label has survived. I feel my current 1.9L Z3 is a damn good driver's car as well but the Z3's never place on any list of best, coolest, etc. anything.
Anyway...PPI yeah is a must, a no-brainer...I do that on every car. Why I went through so many cars in a short period--lust. With the exception of the current Z3 1.9L. I just kept wanting better. The 95 Miata was a blast but wanted more power and better looks, so the first Z3. The 2.3L proved to not be nearly as FUN as the Miata so, went back to a 99 Miata. Soon, I wanted more power again so...the 2.8L Z3. It's power made for a better Z3 experience than the 2.3L but then gas prices skyrocketed and I commute so, got the 1.9L and get up to 35 mpg freeway. I think it's the best Z3 of the bunch in terms of handling and balance. I do like the idea of a I think the suggestion was pre-1973? 911 as I LOVE vintage cars but I know that predates galvanized bodies so rust can be an issue (though probably not so much in a California car), probably no a/c (and I don't need freezer box cool, but the 99 Miata had no a/c and I about roasted in Aug/Sept--part of the reason for selling that car as well.) I don't think I want a Targa or Cab; I've done drop tops for 9 yrs now, have heard the Targas can have leak issues, don't want to deal with replacing another top (I've done it in 3 of the 5 convertibles) and think I'd like what I would assume would be far more stiffness in the coupe. I'm not averse to doing what work I can do myself; however, I'm not a mechanic. Chances are the Porsche experience is still beyond my means and I'll just have to upgrade the Z's suspension and what not and pine away for my 911...:( |
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For a fun car along the lines of what you've already owned, and if you "crave a Porsche", I get a Boxster. Even here in East TN, you can get Boxsters in great condition all day long for less than $15k and I'd be more comfortable with that as a daily driver than even a 20 year old 911. They're still gay, but you can't argue with the performance and fun factor for $10k-$15k. :) |
First welcome to Pelican you've come to the right place. Lots of info here >
http://www.pelicanparts.com/911/technical_specs/911_guthrie_faq.htm Best of luck in your search. |
I had a similar path as you. I had a 91 miata for 4 years, an E30 for 10 months, an 99 M Coupe for about a year, and I finally got a 87 911 earlier this year. I'd say the miata was the best car I ever owned for the simple fact that it was the cheapest, most reliable, and just as fun as anything else. From my short term experience with the 911 I'd expect it to be more reliable than either BMW and it's simply more rewarding to own.
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Yes, I'd consider the Boxster but in my budget it would have to be an early one and I know they had some "catastrophic engine failure" issues--yikes. I would guess that any Boxsters of that vintage would have already imploded were they going to do so, so maybe that's nothing to worry about. However...just the regular maintenance costs would still most likely knock me out of the game with a newer Porsche. Listen, if money were no object, I'd get a Cayman, which I think is one of the most breathtaking cars on the road and has had its praises sung constantly in the auto mags, and a 550 Spyder replica as a weekend toy.
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X2 on the Boxster as a DD, even early 996's are dropping below 20k.
Do you need AC? How many miles a year will you drive since the rear tires require replacement quite often dependent on driving conditions. Also replacement parts for the mid-year CIS are not readily available and expenses can add up quickly if you are in a bind to get the car back on the road and don't have time to sort out the problem quickly-back up car needed. |
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+1 on That! A few months ago I had a man in Miami take his 911 to a dealer for a PPI. I trusted them because they are a huge outfit down there and I felt as if they'd know what they were doing. IN addition to not doing the leak down test like I asked (all they did was compression) they returned paperwork with their "courtesy inspection" notes.... it was not a proper PPI at all, but a Courtesy Inspection like they'd do if you took the car in for service. Ie: "windshield wiper resovoir full," etc. I was Very disappointed to say the least. I wanted this 911 badly but felt I couldn't go on with the deal. And, I got to pay $500 for this dealer's "PPI." |
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I have to admit I cringe every time someone (my wife or some woman usually) tell me the miata is "cute". I don't see it that way at all. But, then again, I don't see myself as a balding middle-aged man either! |
FWIW I considered the '04 Mazdaspeed MX5 (the turbo one). Extremely fun car and I've no doubt I could've modded the heck out of it to be mighty quick (since it's forced induction to begin with and set up for it). I ultimately decided for similar $$$ to get a Boxster-S, but by the time I got down to the dealership it had sold and I opted to get my Mercedes SLK.
I suppose any of them could be joked about as "gay cars" but OTOH they're all awfully fun. I wanted a 2-seater open-top car. And no, I'm not gay either. I just like 'em. I also test-drove the S2000 and the BMW Z3 and Z4. The SLK was the best overall for fit and feel (although I think I'd still have opted for the Boxster S had it been available by the time I got down there). If you want a convertible 2-seater, definitely look at the Mercedes SLKs. They're very nice cars. Between the 230 Kompressor and the 320, I went for the 320 (V6, manual 6-speed transmission, etc.) It's been pretty reliable and I've only had two minor issues with it (crank position sensor had to be replaced, idler pulley broke, both very cheap repairs). |
How do you guys buy so many cars in such a short time? especially to save gas!?!? In MA with sales tax, registration fees, inspections, etc. on top of insurance, I'd go broke buying a car every year just for the fun of it.
I agree with others on the Boxter. Sounds like you like the rag top two seaters anyway. its a great car and has all the Porschness you need on top of a pretty dependable DD. good luck! |
I love these forums!
Yes, I need a/c. My 99 Miata without a/c about fried/broiled/grilled me during the summer.
I drive about 15K miles per year. I commute 50 miles r/t 5 days a week and teach seminars all over So. Cal. weekends. I'm not sure what CIS is; I believe it's something to do with the fuel injector system? WOW. That was quite a list of links! Thanks. I test drove a Mazdaspeed Miata as well but heard that the turbos go on the fritz and are difficult to impossible to get repaired. Again, love the earlier 911 suggestion but worry about rust and no a/c. It's not that I'm necessarily a droptop guy. I love them but I'm at the point where I'd certainly be into the "right" coupe, like a 911 or, after the lottery win, a Cayman...or a 356! |
I wouldn't do it.
When I was younger (late teens - early 20's) I had toyed with getting a 911SC a few times. I almost did it once too. Like you, I couldn't have a daily and a toy, so this would have had to be my daily. I never actually went through with it. Looking back I was glad I didn't. I had no idea on what was involved in the upkeep and probably would have killed the car. The only reason I can have one now is because I do all the work on it. I would stick with the Z3's, Miatas, and the like. If you really have to get a Porsche, maybe look at the Boxters or possibly even a 968. |
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If you get a 911, I would suggest you budget 15,000.00 for purchase and inspection, and another few thousand for what you discover later. IMO, and it is only my opinion, you need at the very least a car with a GREAT engine, a good transmission, and decent mechanicals and electrics. I would spend a little more for a good 84 -86 Carrera. I think the Bosch electronic fuel injection is a very good setup, and I think you can pretty much get every system to stay in Daily driver condition as long as you don't need a top end rebuild or a new set of syncros. Wayne has a book out, 101 projects for your 911. Pete Zimmermann has a book out, The Used 911 Story. Make an investment in your dream, and get a copy of both. You will learn a lot in a short period of time, maybe enough to see if this dream is for you. |
You're a one-car guy and you're considering a mid-'70s 911? I have an '83 SC in which I've invested probably $80,000 just for the fun of it, and I won't go beyond flatbed range with it. C'mon, be serious. It's wonderful to dream of owning a 911, just like I might dream of owning a Lusso Berlinetta or a DB4GT, but as a daily driver? Not in my lifetime. If I'm making the 1+30 drive to Newark Airport to catch a business fight that I damn well _need_ to catch, I would no more drive the 911 than I would hitchhike.
Hell, we have a Boxster that my wife and I drive "daily," but we're waiting for the IMS failure that destroys the engine on somewhere between 10 and 20 percent of these cars, if you believe some estimates. But then there's always our Volvo wagon. (Now _that's_ a daily driver.) You will hear from a huge number of devoted Porsche lovers on this site, including those who will momentarily be flaming me, but listen to many of them at your risk. I only skimmed quickly through the thread, but I did notice the guy who said used 911s are wonderfully reliable, "though granted I only drive mine about 3,000 miles a year." Great. If you only can afford one car but you really don't need a car that badly--there's always the bike, public transportation or your girlfriend's car if worse comes to worst--then an older 911 might work. |
if you can afford driving a Z3, then you can afford an older 911...if you are prepared to do some DIY wrenching. The motors are supposedly "bulletproof'' in the '84-'89 models; but the other tangibles can be finicky at times. Although they are reasonably simple to wrench, oftentimes you must remove 5-25 disassociated parts just to lay a wrench on the actual part needing repair. Oh, and I think several people have already covered how wonderful the stock A/C systems are in these beauties...;)
this car should be your "fun" car, not your daily driver (coming from a guy who uses his as a DD). If you decide to take the leap, do your homework and spend the extra $$$ on one that's solid. You'll hear the one, "every Porsche is $20,000". To explain, go out and spend $10,000 on an SC or a Carrera. You'll soon be spending an additional $10K to get it up to snuff. That being said, I recommend the '84-'89 Carreras. The SC's seem like a PITA with all their alphabet soup systems...CIS, WUR, etc. |
I owned a 75 911S 2.7L, I now own a 84 3.2L. My Advice is don't get the 2.7L go for the 3.0 SC or better yet the 84-89 3.2L.
The 2.7L engines where simply prone to to many issues and if it's stock I'm sure they have not been addressed or resolved. |
I think based on the cars you have owned that a nice 996 would be a good first car for you and you cant beat the pricing on them now, they are great cars and will perform well for you and have the same comfort items that you are used to, if you can find a " S " model at a decent price that would be the way to go.
If you have to go with an aircooled car get a SC or a 993 which ever you can afford but stand ready the 993's bring tons of money even more than the 996's in almost every case. Just my 02. Todd |
I truly appreciate the input. I'd done a little research prior to joining this forum so much of it I've heard/read before. I cycle through this very strong emotional longing/aching/desire for a Porsche and I guess I always hope I'm going to hear an abundance of arguments "proving" that getting one is a sensible thing for ME to do. But, it still sounds like the "evidence" tips towards this NOT being a great idea. I need more money than I've got to get into a car that's not going to be a major headache, I need more money than I've got put aside for inevitable issues, I need a reliable 15K mile per year daily driver, etc. It looks like keeping the Z3, which I love, don't get me wrong, and continuing to do upgrades in performance parts is the way to go. I'll continue to read this and see what else comes in though. Thanks!!!
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yeah, the words "sensible" and "Porsche" don't really go together...kinda like "Army" and "intelligence".
But nobody on this site bought a P-car with sensibility in mind. It's all about fun. |
Hello,
After a life long desire for a 911, I bit the bullet, a 1975 911S, I am the 4th owner. It was a very nice car for the price and was used as a DD. I have put 10K miles on it in 6 months, trying to find the faults, the primary wire to the points is the only thing that went south. I have been driving it like its stolen and the car just runns better every time I drive it. I have been chasing CIS vacuum minor leaks and have most of them knocked back. Its a tinkerers car, if you like to fiddle about with your cars and don't mind doing so, you will be happy. If you are gonna get a 74-77 2.7 there is quite a list of mods that must be done for engine longivity, once those are done(my car had all of them), the 2.7 is a fine engine. I was gonna swap it out directly, but I think I will drive it till it dies and reevaluate at that time. Sittin' in the bleachers is fine, but the game is more fun from the field! Do it and join the club! eric P.S. Its my DD and my back up car is a 1974 Toyota Landcruiser Turbo Diesel w/2 Detroit Lockers. |
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