3.6 conversions - engine sheetmetal ( tins ) questions

[PcarPhil]

Hey guys,

I've got some more questions relating to 3.6 conversions. This time the questions are about the engine sheet metal (tins).

On my '95 993 engine the factory 993 tins look taller than older style tins (for example: 3.2 tins).

I'm planning on using a 3.2 rear engine carrier, single pulley, etc. and would like to also use older style engine tins. I'm wondering since the older engine tins appear shorter than the 993 tins will the 3.2 tins still properly seal against the engine bay seal? Also I'm planning on using 1" spacers on the engine mounts to lower the engine in the engine compartment.

Another option would be to use the fiberglass tins from Smart Racing or the 3.6 tins from Patrick Motorsports. Looking at their pics though I think both their setups would still need to be modified (add a hole for the RS heat duct, etc.) so I'd rather just make up my own tins using parts I already have.

Thanks for the help!

[175K911]

Hey Scott- have you checked with Steve Timmins? He's probably done more of these conversions than anyone.

[PcarPhil]

Originally Posted by 175K911

Hey Scott- have you checked with Steve Timmins? He's probably done more of these conversions than anyone.

I haven't talked to him in awhile.

Part of the reason I'm asking these questions here is to document on Pelican the steps required to install a 3.6 engine into earlier cars. Hopefully this documentation will help future 3.6 converters!

[DW SD]

Scott,
On my project, I did not make the early tins taller. I did install a new rubber curtain seal. The one I replaced had plasticized. I wouldn't describe my seal between the rubber curtain and the tins as perfect, but it is not horrible. The thing that did improve over others' installs is that by making the "gurney bump" in the window shelf, you can install the engine higher up in the chassis. This minimizes some of the gap between the tins and the rubber seal.

I'll see if I can find a picture or take one.

Doug

[PcarPhil]

Originally Posted by DW SD

Scott,
On my project, I did not make the early tins taller. I did install a new rubber curtain seal. The one I replaced had plasticized. I wouldn't describe my seal between the rubber curtain and the tins as perfect, but it is not horrible. The thing that did improve over others' installs is that by making the "gurney bump" in the window shelf, you can install the engine higher up in the chassis. This minimizes some of the gap between the tins and the rubber seal.

I'll see if I can find a picture or take one.

Doug

Thanks Doug!

Do you remember what you did for tin mods around the missing on-engine cooler area?

[DW SD]

Originally Posted by Kaefer

Thanks Doug!

Do you remember what you did for tin mods around the missing on-engine cooler area?

Scott,
Yes! I had previous used FG conversion tins, which were garbage, by the way. But....I did decide to use that one piece of FG in the old cooler area.

I looked at it just now. I think if you can fabricate a bit and weld, you could cannabalize an extra early tin and close up that area with something that looks factory.

My rubber curtain rests on about a 45 degree angle against the tins. It is not pressed tight with the tins, but not flopping loose, either. This was not wind tunnel tested, though

Doug

[PcarPhil]

Originally Posted by DW SD

Scott,
Yes! I had previous used FG conversion tins, which were garbage, by the way. But....I did decide to use that one piece of FG in the old cooler area.

I looked at it just now. I think if you can fabricate a bit and weld, you could cannabalize an extra early tin and close up that area with something that looks factory.

My rubber curtain rests on about a 45 degree angle against the tins. It is not pressed tight with the tins, but not flopping loose, either. This was not wind tunnel tested, though

Doug

I thought about calling PMS, Smart Racing, or Timmins and asking them if they'd sell me just that one piece.

You're right though...I've got that piece from a '71 and I could weld on additional metal and make it work.

Again thanks for the help! If I go through with the conversion I'll make sure to post pics of my engine tin mods.

[Jaskas]

I used the 3.6 original tin with small modifications. The back end of motor was quite easy. The 993 tins back side is a bit tilted, i just cut the sides open and bend it to be in 90 degrees angle and welded together. It works OK with the curtains.
The Powersteering corner was a bit more complicated, but after a few mockups and couple of test versions cut from sheet it turned out OK as well. Just take sheet in to your hand and start cutting and bending

[beamonk]

Doug, how did you make the Gurney bump? did you beat it out or did you use something more elegant?

[DW SD]

Originally Posted by beamonk

Doug, how did you make the Gurney bump? did you beat it out or did you use something more elegant?

John,
I had the car on a lift. I used the elegantly simple 4x4 supported by a floor jack . The car was solely supported by the 4x4 and I was afraid the rear window might break. I probably gained 1" all said and done.

It keeps the engine from hanging so low. Especially with the early car bodywork, if you get down, the heat exchangers are visible from the side.

My car is pretty slammed, so I don't think the center of gravity was effected in any negative way.

Doug

[PcarPhil]

Doug,

A year and a half later I want to say THANK YOU for your suggestion of making a gurney bump in the rear parcel shelf to avoid having to use spacers (or shorter spacers) with a 3.6 engine.

I'm finally getting around to installing a 3.6 engine (in this case a 964 engine) and I got it in yesterday with NO spacers and the fit is great.

Thanks again for the suggestion!

[Joe Bob]

Clean install, good job. No heat?

[PcarPhil]

Originally Posted by Joe Bob

Clean install, good job. No heat?

Thanks! Yes I'll be installing heat. Probably not until next winter though (it's already warming up here in VA). At this point I just want to get the engine running and the car drivable.

I'm using 993 heat exchangers and will use either a RS heat duct or go all out and backdate the fan/alt/shroud assembly so I can use early heat ducts.

Here's a backdated 3.6 setup from Zuffenhaus:

[DW SD]

Originally Posted by Kaefer

Doug,

A year and a half later I want to say THANK YOU for your suggestion of making a gurney bump in the rear parcel shelf to avoid having to use spacers (or shorter spacers) with a 3.6 engine.

I'm finally getting around to installing a 3.6 engine (in this case a 964 engine) and I got it in yesterday with NO spacers and the fit is great.

Thanks again for the suggestion!

Scott,
Excellent! Thanks for closing the loop. Glad the advice was helpful. With a carpet kit to cover, the bump is not the least bit noticeable.

For what it is worth, I use the 993 RS setup for heat. If I did it again, I'd probably copy another Pelican. I'd add mesh over the heat changer inlets to keep out pests and then add two small blow-through fans (like the kind for scavenger air in a boat's engine / bilge area) in the front truck and suck air through the heat exchangers, keeping the engine area super clean. These fans are as cheap as $30. Probably a multi-speed fan would be a bit more.

Doug

[PcarPhil]

Originally Posted by DW SD

Scott,
Excellent! Thanks for closing the loop. Glad the advice was helpful. With a carpet kit to cover, the bump is not the least bit noticeable.

For what it is worth, I use the 993 RS setup for heat. If I did it again, I'd probably copy another Pelican. I'd add mesh over the heat changer inlets to keep out pests and then add two small blow-through fans (like the kind for scavenger air in a boat's engine / bilge area) in the front truck and suck air through the heat exchangers, keeping the engine area super clean. These fans are as cheap as $30. Probably a multi-speed fan would be a bit more.

Doug

Doug,

You're just full of good ideas. Do you have any other 3.6 conversion suggestions?



I'll have to seriously consider the heat setup you mentioned. I do wonder how many additional exhaust fumes, if any, would get sucked into the heat system with this method, especially when sitting stopped at a light. However cruising down the road I wouldn't see a problem with it.

I'll let you guys know what I end up with for heat.

Thanks again,

[DW SD]

Scott,
I shut off my heat at lights, presently, when just using the RS crossover tube style as I can smell exhaust. I shut it off with the lever tabs adjacent to the e-brake. Suspect you will, too, even if you backdate like zuffenhaus setup.

Not sure if you have the throttle worked out, but I did something a little different to adapt mine. You can see photos of it here on Pelican. I used the factory pedal and cluster and adapted a Lokar throttle at the bellcrank on the transmission. I changed the leverage (faster response) by lengthening one of the arms. I think I snapped a photo of that, too.

This was cheap and works flawlessly. The lokar throttle cable was $50 from summitracing. It is fully adjustable and braided stainless sheeth, machined aluminum parts. Real nice quality.

Use "lokar" as a search term if you look. Should come up.

Doug

Doug

[Tom '74 911]

Scott -

Thanks for bumping this thread so I could see it too. I am a few weeks behind you in putting a 964 3.6L in my '74 and this stuff is helpful! I am planning to use Doug's throttle set up - I have the parts, just need to fab some brackets.

BTW, I found a 964 rear tin piece that was closer to me and also saved on some shipping by combining it w/some other stuff. Sorry about not following up on that w/you.

Thanks,
Tom

[DW SD]

Here's my old thread on the cable setup, if anyone were interested. 993 conversion: relay + ISV making noises + throttle cable setup & photos

Tom,
We communicated via PM. In looking at the photos, I think the second arm is only about 1.5X the first arm on the bellcrank.

I do really like the short throw and quick ratio on the gas pedal action.

Doug

[PcarPhil]

Originally Posted by Tom '74 911

Scott -

Thanks for bumping this thread so I could see it too. I am a few weeks behind you in putting a 964 3.6L in my '74 and this stuff is helpful! I am planning to use Doug's throttle set up - I have the parts, just need to fab some brackets.

BTW, I found a 964 rear tin piece that was closer to me and also saved on some shipping by combining it w/some other stuff. Sorry about not following up on that w/you.

Thanks,
Tom

Tom - No problem. Keep in mind if you're using 964 tins you probably don't need to do the gurney bump mod but you will end up using spacers above the crossmember. It's all in the way the tins fit.

Doug - I ended up using the PMS throttle cable. If I were to do this again I'd probably go the Summit Racing (Lokar) setup partially to save some $$$. I'm helping a local Pelican with a 3.6 install and that's the route he's going.

[Tom '74 911]

Originally Posted by DW SD

Tom,
We communicated via PM. In looking at the photos, I think the second arm is only about 1.5X the first arm on the bellcrank.

I do really like the short throw and quick ratio on the gas pedal action.

Doug

Thanks for all the info and help Doug! I like your idea of drilling a few different holes for the location of the ball on the bellcrank - options are almost always good to have.

Originally Posted by Kaefer

Tom - No problem. Keep in mind if you're using 964 tins you probably don't need to do the gurney bump mod but you will end up using spacers above the crossmember. It's all in the way the tins fit.

Scott -

Sorry for the thread hijack & thanks for the info on the tins and spacer etc... I haven't done an engine fitting yet as I'm waiting for a few more parts before taking it off the stand, but it's always nice to know what's ahead.

Hope you get your's running soon!

Tom