Finally Got Some Pictures of my Car, Help spot problems with targa top leak

[UrQuattro]

Ok, i have a bunch of pictures that im gonna post up here, a few are just to show off the car a little, some are to show the way that linen/tan leather interior looks when you have to use cork door pockets and front floor mats, and then there are some that are hopefully going to indicate a possible solution for my leaking problem that i created a thread about last week.

History on the car - no accidents, but it does have a full repaint that was done properly, so, im guessing that the doors and fenders were removed. I think i remember the previous owner telling my father when he bought it that the owner before him (the po only had it for 6 months) had either got a new targa top or had it totally redone. But i do know that the three rear seals that run on the targa roll bar need replacement, but beyond that, im clueless... I know cars, I know audi UrQuattros, but 911's are still brand new to me...

Here we go...

The first one is showing how far up the window goes when completely closed:



This one shows the front drivers corner with door closed:



This one shows another angle of the same corner:


This is a similar picture of the other side, but this one has the extra bit of weatherstripping that i attached to the top of the front quarter window, which i had removed from the other side before taking the picture to show the difference. Also, the weather seal that runs down both a-pillars have weatherstripping between the flap part of it and the a-pillar itself. Especially on the driver's side, if i remove that weatherstripping that is pushing the seal to mate with the quarter window with the door closed, there is a 1/8" gap that runs the full length of the a-pillar. So, effectively, the only reason that those seals 'seal' is that there is something behind them pushing them out to meet the doors.




This picture shows the leading edge of the targa top:

These next few are of the car:





Michael

[UrQuattro]

These are the last few pics.. They are in the interior.








Well, that's it... Any input, feedback, anything would be more than welcome... And thanks to everyone for all the input and feedback from my previous threads!!

Michael

[tcar]

Is the car an SC? It looks like it and has the emblem. You don't say.

That top material is correct for an earlier car (earlier than an SC), however, the top should still fit fine.

Side windows are too high, should be adjusted (see Bentley manual). Mine too, I just don't roll them up that far.

I'm wondering if the front rubber seal (the seal on top of the windshield) was replaced and they used a new one from Porsche. If so, those seals are too thick. It looks like the top is sitting too high in the front.

Dan Pechtel (he's on here from time to time - do a search), has had some made w/ the proper cross section, I think you can purchase them from him.

Is the top fully latched, being that high?

[UrQuattro]

The car is an SC. The material of the top is vinyl, but i havent run in to any other targas, so i dont know what the correct material for this car is. It is an 81. It is definitely for a 75+ car since it has the middle tab that goes in to the center of the targa bar. What material should be on it? I thought that the canvass top material was for later cars...

Also, the side seals for the top dont seem to make sense to me.. when the windows roll up and i close the door, or if the door is closed and i roll up the window, basically it just ends up sitting just beneath this metal rain gutter type edge of the targa top. The rubber seal just kind of sits next to it, as if the top is supposed to seal it by putting pressure from the side. It is like this on both sides... should there be another part?

Yes, the left and right locks do lock completely... i really wish that the top sat correctly... it really irritates me. You can see how i added an extra line of weatherstripping along the leading edge, you can see one part of it in front of the top. That helped a lot with wind noise. Before i put that strip on, anytime i was going above about 65, it had so much wind noise that it hurt my ears.

One thing that concerns me is that the trim piece that runs on the outside top of the door, from the quarter window back is about 3/4" short, leaving a gaping hole that i would imagine would let in a huge amount of water during a rainstorm... Are they supposed to be like that? Both sides are, so it seems so...

I noticed, once the sun came back out, that there was a lot of condensed 'steam' coming out of the front of the door panel and along the front of the door seal

[twistoffat]

That whole Targa roof looks uneven. The windows are definitely too high. I´ll try take some pictures of my seals for you but it sounds like you still have alot of moisture in the car. If you can get it garaged put a sack of rice in the car for a day or two. This should help absorb the moisture.

[twistoffat]

Okay I have some pics. The Targa roof should sit tight against the roof rail. A tip to find where the leak is coming from is strips of blotting paper on double sided sticky tape with a dot of colour on it strategically placed around where you suspect the leak . This will show the direction of the leak and how bad it is. Once you get the windows level I suspect you need the seals replacing they have probably got perished with time.



Also check the B Pillar. Water often run off the roof and down the B pillar under the sills. Its a rust point around the lock on old Targas

[DRACO A5OG]

Thanks for the pics, it really helps:

1st the top looks like it needs to be adjusted or rehabbed, but let's talk about the less expensive stuff first.

1. Front Seal appears to be forcing the front end of the top too high, which willl cause wind noise and worse leaks. As others stated contact Dan, he has known good replacement front seals. I put one of his seals and the were a perfect fit.

Notice where the locks pull down on the top, the lower portions. That is where the entire top's front section should be. Again the front seal looks like it is forcing the top up and not making a proper seal.

2. Both Quarter windows are too low, literally the amount of the space in the Driver Side pic and the passanger side filled with foam is the gap that needs to be adjusted up to but as mentioned above the cause gap looks to be an improper front seal over wind shield or P/O or Mechanic placing shims thinking that would fix something, not.

That gap is where water is filling and then dripping into your cab.

You can adjust the quarter windows up but it will not correct the root of the issue.

3. Windows, Oh My, those are closing in the wrong place. The are supposed to sit under and within the side seals.

Look underneath and you will see a inverted gutter. You will notice it is the same thickness as the window glass and goes up and in about 1/4"+.

Yes, those window need to be lowered and fine tuned with the parallelism adjustment points.

That rubber corner piece at the rear of the quarter window is the window exterior stops but really they are guides because they give and form around the curved corner part of the window. Never meant to go beyond that point. You will need to make the stop adjustment in the door.

If you need the 2 manuals, PM me your email address and I will send you the pdf files.

I bet if you replace the front over the wind shield seal, correct the window height, it will resolve most or all of your leak issues.

Jim

[UrQuattro]

Thank you draco that was really helpful. The top looks as bad as it does because the clip that is just to the passenger side will not stay in place because I just found out over the weekend that the little bar that receives the two bolts that hold the clip in place is stripped out on one side. So I have no idea what to do to fix it. I looked on pelican and found the clips but not the retainer part.

Also, regarding the windows when the doors are closed, it now makes so much sense that the window should fit in that slot that the side seals have. On the passenger side, as long as I have the door closed when I roll up the window, the front half of the window will be almost in that slot, at least pushing up at the side seal a bit.

Today when I got home, I checked the driver's side window and found that it has a lot of free play laterally. It explains what I see when I'm in the carand I roll up the window - the quarter window will actually be pulled outward slightly. Also, for as long as I can remember when my dad got the car, when driving with the window partway down, I can hear a rattling sound when going over rough pavement.

Compared to the passenger side, it's the drivers side that will let you pull on the window away from the car a fair amount. I think that is why it is completely missing the side seal. I had always been irritated, too, by the fact that if I didn't push on the door firmly enough, or if I closed the door by the window, it would only shut halfway. Now I realize that it is because when I pushed the window in to where it is supposed to be, it would just hit the side of the side seal and prevent the door from closing. When I closed the drivers door by lowering the window a little, to where it seems like it should be, and pushing on the glass and door as well, I was able to get it to seal correctly and FINALLY for the first time it looks like the whole assembly makes sense.

So. How do I get rid of that play in the window????

Thanks for the help so far.

Michael

[UrQuattro]

Also, my mechanic told me that he no longer does the front seals because they end up being too difficult to replace. Ugh. I shouldn't have been buying all the stuff that I have off of the forum, thinking that they were important. It seems as though I have a lot of money to spend to get this top, seal, and window situation under control so that I can have sone confidence about cleaning up the interior and having a chance of keeping the car looking good.

Michael

[UrQuattro]

Twistofatt-

I'd that is supposed to be what the top looks like, I'm in real trouble. I'd give anything for a fit like that. No matter how much I try to re-seat the edges while pulling down on them, they just won't line up. Ugh.

But your pictures really helped. I'm curious about the front seal on your car it has the rubber lip like on mine, but there is an extra part that I don't think I have on my car. It looks like an aixiliarry seal.

Thanks again foe the pics
Michael

[sled9146]

Follow T car's advice and talk to Dan P. Yes the rubber is toooo thick and yes he has the right ones.

[vulcan300]

You've had some good advice from the boys on here already. Here's my two cents.

1 - Try pushing the front edge of the top down with your hand starting at the center of the targa top. If the top easily seats lower and makes a smooth seal with the front targa bar you likely need to adjust the locks on either side of the targa top. The locks can be adjusted by loosening 3 5mm allen bolts that are accessible the inner edge of the targa tops metal support frame on either side of the slot where you insert the key to open the locks. By loosening all three bolts, then sliding the lock closer to the outer surface of the top and retightening the bolts you can achieve a tighter fit.

2 - The manuals that Draco has offered have the procedure for removing the door panel and adjusting the quarter window and window glass. The lateral play in the qaurter window and window glass is likely cause by a loos bolt that is meant to hold the bottom of the quarter window frame in place. You will need to remove the speaker and door panel to get at all the bolts for the quarter window and door glass. Once you have the panel off the adjustments are quite straightforward.

3 - Remove all the other foam, shims, crap or other material that is either underneath or on top of the seals. Complete the adjustment of the front locks on the targa top and put the top back on the car. If the front edge is now sitting lower or even flush with the front targa bar you're making good progress. Then, doing one door at a time, remove the inner panel and speaker and adjust the quarter window until it meets the seal as you see in the 2nd picture posted by twistoffat. A tight seal at the top will eliminate water leaks and wind noise. Next set the height and level of the window glass so it stop at the window stops (you may need to replace these if they've been torn by the windows going too high). When you close the door i should make a good seal all around with the top edge seating itself in the groove of the side seal on the underside of the targa top. If the side seal is not making the right contact with the glass you can move it in and out somewhat by loosening the three-four phillips screws that hold it to the top.

4 - If all the gaps are closed up and you still have water coming in the front edge you should then look at replacing your seals.

Hope that helps :-)

J

[DRACO A5OG]

Originally Posted by UrQuattro

Thank you draco that was really helpful. The top looks as bad as it does because the clip that is just to the passenger side will not stay in place because I just found out over the weekend that the little bar that receives the two bolts that hold the clip in place is stripped out on one side. So I have no idea what to do to fix it. I looked on pelican and found the clips but not the retainer part.

I believe you are talking about the actual passager side arm that hold the locking mechanism for the top, pics would help, sorry. but here it goes.

That part is made of magnesium/pot metal and once stripped or broken, you need to replace it. Not a cheap part new but Dan has that part used for a reasonable price. I replaced my driver side because my arm cracked. at the pivot point.

If not completely strip and there is some metal remainging you can move the retainer clip over to the side that is still good enough to catch it.

The only other thing to do is to build that portion up by adding some steel and tapping some screws into place. Ugly but effective.

Originally Posted by UrQuattro

Also, regarding the windows when the doors are closed, it now makes so much sense that the window should fit in that slot that the side seals have. On the passenger side, as long as I have the door closed when I roll up the window, the front half of the window will be almost in that slot, at least pushing up at the side seal a bit.

Once you replace the front seal with Dan's, your top will sit much better and then you can make the fine adjustments with the manuals I sent you.

If cost is an issue, you can just adjust the quarter windows up and then adjust the windows to seat properly into the side seals.

If you need help, call me.

Today when I got home, I checked the driver's side window and found that it has a lot of free play laterally. It explains what I see when I'm in the carand I roll up the window - the quarter window will actually be pulled outward slightly. Also, for as long as I can remember when my dad got the car, when driving with the window partway down, I can hear a rattling sound when going over rough pavement.

There is a "L" bracket at the bottom of the quater window that is notrious for breaking due to too much stress and us Nianderthals using the window to close the door as opposed to the door handle.

Once you take apart the door look for that. I ended up replacing mine twice and when it broke again, I ended up building the part up with some sheet metal, all is well know. But still use my window to close the door, "ugh me strong"

Compared to the passenger side, it's the drivers side that will let you pull on the window away from the car a fair amount. I think that is why it is completely missing the side seal. I had always been irritated, too, by the fact that if I didn't push on the door firmly enough, or if I closed the door by the window, it would only shut halfway. Now I realize that it is because when I pushed the window in to where it is supposed to be, it would just hit the side of the side seal and prevent the door from closing. When I closed the drivers door by lowering the window a little, to where it seems like it should be, and pushing on the glass and door as well, I was able to get it to seal correctly and FINALLY for the first time it looks like the whole assembly makes sense.

Once you make your adjustments, you will be amazed how smoothly the door will close and seal.

What I ended up doing is to take off my front seal from Dan and panel off and door closed, I adjusted all the points where they needed to be.

With the seal on it is much harder because you have to compensate for the give of the rubber to make a proper alignment.

So. How do I get rid of that play in the window????

Most likely it is the "L" bracket that is broken, that is where you will get in the in and out play. The other area is the rear adjustment points but those are rock solid.

[DRACO A5OG]

Originally Posted by UrQuattro

Also, my mechanic told me that he no longer does the front seals because they end up being too difficult to replace. Ugh. I shouldn't have been buying all the stuff that I have off of the forum, thinking that they were important. It seems as though I have a lot of money to spend to get this top, seal, and window situation under control so that I can have sone confidence about cleaning up the interior and having a chance of keeping the car looking good.

Michael

Yeah, he is smart not to mess with the front seal if he does not have the correct part. It only makes things worse.

Dan P is the only person I am aware of that has the proper seal. Contact him, you will not regret it.

If you do get one, I found the best method is like installing window tint, use a bottle water sprayer to lube the seal into place. Manual states to use adhesive but his seal is so good, it will not be needed.

[DRACO A5OG]

Originally Posted by UrQuattro

Twistofatt-

I'd that is supposed to be what the top looks like, I'm in real trouble. I'd give anything for a fit like that. No matter how much I try to re-seat the edges while pulling down on them, they just won't line up. Ugh.

But your pictures really helped. I'm curious about the front seal on your car it has the rubber lip like on mine, but there is an extra part that I don't think I have on my car. It looks like an aixiliarry seal.

Thanks again foe the pics
Michael

The manuals I sent you will depict the two types of front seals.

[DRACO A5OG]

Michael,

I believe the part you are talking about is: 901-565-208-40-OEM

[UrQuattro]

Draco,

I'm lucky enough that it is NOT this part that i was referring to. I was talking about the part that allows the retaining clips to actually attach to the roof panel. Each retaining clip requires two phillips head machine screws that screw in to a metal "plate" that has two screw holes and is floating behind the vinyl and such has a stripped screw hole... On the retaining clip that is just to the right of the center hinge of the passenger lock bar, that is the one that is stripped out. Two clips attach in to little slots on each of the lock bars.

So, because the receiver for the screws that hold the retaining clip is stripped, one of the clips will not clamp down in position, and will slide forward and back within the adjustment range of the clip...

This is the part that i tried to find on pelican, but i was unable to...

The lock bar has a SMALL amount of metal shaved off of it on the leading edge of the lock bar, but not enough to cause this problem if the retaining clip could be placed in the correct position...

As far as adjusting the locking mechanisms themselves, i'm pretty nervous about that, as it already feels very tight when trying to lock the top down, and i would hate to end up breaking one of them..

Anyway, thanks for all of the input everyone, keep it coming if you can, but so far it is invaluable...

And as far as the front seal - what is dan's name on here? Since he apparently has the correctly sized one, is it difficult to install it? I have done lots of different work on my UrQuattro, but never really anything as far as seals/bodywork, etc... Does anyone have an estimate of how many hours i'd have to pay a mechanic to replace the seal if i went that route?

Thanks again,
Michael

Originally Posted by DRACO A5OG

Michael,

I believe the part you are talking about is: 901-565-208-40-OEM

[HarryD]

Originally Posted by UrQuattro

Draco,

I'm lucky enough that it is NOT this part that i was referring to. I was talking about the part that allows the retaining clips to actually attach to the roof panel. Each retaining clip requires two phillips head machine screws that screw in to a metal "plate" that has two screw holes and is floating behind the vinyl and such has a stripped screw hole... On the retaining clip that is just to the right of the center hinge of the passenger lock bar, that is the one that is stripped out. Two clips attach in to little slots on each of the lock bars.

So, because the receiver for the screws that hold the retaining clip is stripped, one of the clips will not clamp down in position, and will slide forward and back within the adjustment range of the clip...

This is the part that i tried to find on pelican, but i was unable to...

The lock bar has a SMALL amount of metal shaved off of it on the leading edge of the lock bar, but not enough to cause this problem if the retaining clip could be placed in the correct position...

As far as adjusting the locking mechanisms themselves, i'm pretty nervous about that, as it already feels very tight when trying to lock the top down, and i would hate to end up breaking one of them..

Anyway, thanks for all of the input everyone, keep it coming if you can, but so far it is invaluable...

And as far as the front seal - what is dan's name on here? Since he apparently has the correctly sized one, is it difficult to install it? I have done lots of different work on my UrQuattro, but never really anything as far as seals/bodywork, etc... Does anyone have an estimate of how many hours i'd have to pay a mechanic to replace the seal if i went that route?

Thanks again,
Michael

Michael:

Dan Petchel of Cars Inc should be able to help you out. As you may recall from your "I'm so pissed at myself right now. I scratched the paint down to the metal. " thread, I told you this:

Originally Posted by HarryD

...

About your Targa Top. I strongly reccommend that you DO NOT add weather stripping. The PO of my car did and while I never had a water leak, the darn thing whistled at speed. I removed the extra weather stripping and adjusted the top (it has about a bazillion adjustments) and the noise was 98% stopped. Dan Petchel at Cars Inc (Vintage Porsche Parts and Targa Tops for Porsche) gave me a lot of help to get it right. You most liklely will need to adjust the clips and window heights.

[vulcan300]

Dan's web site is Vintage Porsche Parts and Targa Tops for Porsche

Send him an e-mail or give him a call and he'll hook you up with the new seal. Once you have the seal in hand you'll probably see that the install won't be too challenging. I don't think you need a mechanic to put it on for you but if you do go that route you shouldn't have to pay for more than an hour of labor.

J

[DRACO A5OG]

Hey Michael,

OK, now I know what you are talking about. Yeah I stripped a screw too so I got a larger diameter screw and tapped it in. Just make sure it is the same depth, you will be fine. Got mine at home depot.

As far as the seal, as others stated you can do it yourself, with the guide of manuals. Trick is corners first, then center finish withthe sides. Use bottled water sprayer to lube to seals and it will fit right in.

No need to adjust the locks. Thank goodness it is not the arm, that part is expensive new but Dan P has them for reasonable prices used.