1983 911SC with factory special wide body

[Keith Mosley]

I've got a 83 Porsche 911SC with a wide body. I'm only the third owner and the second owner bought it from a close friend. They say it is a factory special order of a 930 style wide body with the 911 engine. Now I'm selling the car and everyone is concerned that is was not a factory wide body. How do you know?? Is there a way to verify what actually happened at the factory? Thanks,

Here is the vin number, I hope it can shed some light on the factory history. WP0AA0911DS12XXXX
Thanks for all your help, suggestions and comments.

[GaryR]

I don't believe Porsche produced a wide body until the Carerra's (84-89) unless it was for a turbo..

[TechnoViking]

I would think the VIN would have a code for that. Hopefully our VIN experts will chime in.

The way you tell a non-factory widebody job is to feel for the weld line up inside the rear fender. You can bolt on turbo fenders in the front, but the back has to be cut and welded.

[mpetry]

also the turbo banana arms / control arms are different. Very unlikely that a conversion would have those; instead they would have wheel spacers.

[GaryR]

And 930 brakes/calipers, and suspension....

[McLovin]

Everyone always claims their SC is a "factory special order" widebody, but it never turns out to be true.

[McLovin]

I'm going to go out on a limb and guess: The car doesn't have original paint. Correct?

[tmsautoart]

Originally Posted by Martin Smith

I would think the VIN would have a code for that. Hopefully our VIN experts will chime in.

The way you tell a non-factory widebody job is to feel for the weld line up inside the rear fender. You can bolt on turbo fenders in the front, but the back has to be cut and welded.

Turbos or real widebodies were also welded on at the factory. Not sure if you meant the "quality" of the weld perhaps? They never anticipated making very many of them. It wasn't until the mid/late 80's that they finally started making wide quarters out of a single sheet of steel.

[peon77]

911s that were owned in Europe could be sent back to the factory for whatever the owner desired. It may not have been "born" a wide body but it was still "factory".

[Peter Zimmermann]

Originally Posted by Keith Mosley

I've got a 83 Porsche 911SC with a wide body. I'm only the third owner and the second owner bought it from a close friend. They say it is a factory special order of a 930 style wide body with the 911 engine. Now I'm selling the car and everyone is concerned that is was not a factory wide body. How do you know?? Is there a way to verify what actually happened at the factory? Thanks,

1. Please post the VIN. If you're not comfortable doing that put "xxxx" for the last four digits.
2. Look at the underside of the front trunk lid. Near the middle of the lid, close to the upper latch, you will find a white sticker that's about 3" x 3". The sticker will have individual numbers and letters on it, please post each.
3. Look through your wheel openings, what do your brake calipers look like (gray and rounded off?; black and kind of squared off?)?
4. Do your front fenders have pop-up headlights (aka Slant nose config.), or are the lights in the conventional, almost upright, location?
5. Cabriolet or coupe?

Originally Posted by Martin Smith

I would think the VIN would have a code for that. Hopefully our VIN experts will chime in.

The way you tell a non-factory widebody job is to feel for the weld line up inside the rear fender. You can bolt on turbo fenders in the front, but the back has to be cut and welded.

FYI: Brace's Auto Body in Culver City, CA can duplicate that weld. Even the finish on the underside of the panel is perfect - he'll even dribble on the Cosmoline in the joint between panel and body. Pure genius! How do I know? He did my car (below), and a few for customers...

[group911@aol.co]

Originally Posted by peon77

911s that were owned in Europe could be sent back to the factory for whatever the owner desired. It may not have been "born" a wide body but it was still "factory".

I had a 77 3.0 Carrera that had this done. The factory installed all widebody panels but not the turbo trailing arms or brakes. Basically, you took the car to the factory and told them what you wanted done.
Is it any better than the guy in California that can duplicate the process?
Probably not.

[TRE Cup]

Its called Sonder Wunsch = Special Wishes department.
Just about whatever you want can be done at the factory- how deep is your wallet ?

Example: In fall '83 I saw a batch of slant nose turbos being built across the street from Werkes 1 (main assembly building). Headlamps were being installed in a custom front bumper, not pop ups.

Go get a Certificate of Authenticity . If it was built with special wishes to begin with, hopefully they have their records straight and you may see it posted there.

good luck

[TechnoViking]

Originally Posted by tmsautoart

Turbos or real widebodies were also welded on at the factory. Not sure if you meant the "quality" of the weld perhaps? They never anticipated making very many of them. It wasn't until the mid/late 80's that they finally started making wide quarters out of a single sheet of steel.

I did not know that. Learn something every day here.

[tmsautoart]

Originally Posted by Martin Smith

I did not know that. Learn something every day here.

I didn't know it at one time too!

[Keith Mosley]

I've got a 83 Porsche 911SC with a wide body. I'm only the third owner and the second owner bought it from a close friend. They say it is a factory special order of a 930 style wide body with the 911 engine. Now I'm selling the car and everyone is concerned that is was not a factory wide body. How do you know?? Is there a way to verify what actually happened at the factory? Thanks,

Here is the vin number, I hope it can shed some light on the factory history. WP0AA0911DS12XXXX
Thanks for all your help, suggestions and comments.

[Keith Mosley]

I've got a 83 Porsche 911SC with a wide body. I'm only the third owner and the second owner bought it from a close friend. They say it is a factory special order of a 930 style wide body with the 911 engine. Now I'm selling the car and everyone is concerned that is was not a factory wide body. How do you know?? Is there a way to verify what actually happened at the factory? Thanks,

Here is the vin number, I hope it can shed some light on the factory history. WP0AA0911DS12XXXX
Thanks for all your help, suggestions and comments.

[tmsautoart]

i'm sure if a car was ordered new with a 930 wide body from the factory it would be documented. Listed in the option codes possibly. If a car was sent back to the factory afterwards to get a facelift, WITHOUT documentation, I would think you'd be pretty hard pressed to convince a buyer it was "factory". I could see it now: Everybody with an aftermarket widebody would be claiming that their car was sent back to the factory for the conversion!

[GaryR]

Originally Posted by tmsautoart

I could see it now: Everybody with an aftermarket widebody would be claiming that their car was sent back to the factory for the conversion!

Mine was, and I had them backdate it too!!

[McLovin]

Originally Posted by tmsautoart

I would think you'd be pretty hard pressed to convince a buyer it was "factory". I could see it now: Everybody with an aftermarket widebody would be claiming that their car was sent back to the factory for the conversion!

Everyone pretty much already does that.

[Peter Zimmermann]

WPO = World manufacturing code
AAO = USA 911SC coupe
91 = 1st/2nd digits of model (911)
1 = "Test digit" (VIN authentication)
D = 1983
S = Production site
1 = 3rd digit of model (911)
2 = Body and engine code (USA 911SC coupe)
xxxx = Consecutive build #

Analyzing your VIN, I seriously doubt that you have a factory-built wide body. I have never heard of, read about, or seen, a wide body SC, and only a handful of '84s exist. Nothing in the VIN suggests modification, but that's where the great mystery comes from, there is no VIN documentation for authentic Turbo Look Carreras. It's almost as though the factory slipped these cars into production under the noses of the Fed, with no documented crash testing, etc.

You might find the following excerpt from a copyrighted publication written by me of interest:

MYSTERY - The Turbo-Look 3.2 liter Carrera; Option M491
First I want to list a couple of publications that I believe to be noteworthy, and have their rightful place in the history of Porsche. They are:
1. Moments by Peter Vann
Published by: Praetor & Rindlisbacher Verlagsgesellschaft mbH
Co-published by: Public Relations and Press Dept., Dr. Ing. H.c. F. Porsche AG
Moments is the “Official Porsche 50th Anniversary Book”, 1948 – 1998
2. Porsche 911 – Forever Young by Tobias Aichele
English language edition published by: Beeman Jorgensen, Inc., 1995

Mr. Aichele has restored a 1965 911, which has spent many years on display at the Porsche Museum, and spent time as the director of Porsche’s domestic (German) press department.

Peter Vann, a photographer, used a number of written contributions in order to produce his amazing book, Moments. Of course, when one tries to squeeze the vast history of an automobile into a few more than 200 pages many details must go unused. In this book it is written that, “Customers had frequently expressed a desire to buy the basic models with the same flared fenders and wider tires as on the Turbo, and starting in the 1985 model year their wish was granted.”

Now, taking this statement as is it would seem that the writer forgot about the 1984 Turbo-Look coupe. However, the remainder of the text of the same paragraph continues with the discussion of only 3.3 liter Turbo Targas and Turbo Cabriolets, so one can easily assume that the author was discussing only Turbo-Look Targas and Cabs being introduced in 1985. Unfortunately, because of the way records were kept, and the use of VINs, the only production numbers given in this publication are: “By 1989, 299 Turbo Targas and no fewer than 1642 Turbo Cabriolets had been made and sold.” No fewer than…hmmmmm. No mention was made regarding production numbers of Turbo-Look models.

Tobias Aichele, on the other hand, delved deeper into production numbers and details. Armed with factory memos and a variety of documents, he too failed to totally unravel the Turbo-Look mystery. In his chapter titled “Hats Off” he presents the fascinating tale of how the Targa and Cabriolet came to be, and in the body of the text wrote, “From the 1985 model year, the Targa and cabriolet were even offered in the wide-body ‘Turbo-Look,’ but without the Turbo rear wing.”

Later in the book, in the year-to-year section, Mr. Aichele states, in the 1984 text, that the “911 Carrera Coupe (was) available in Turbo Look.” Not until his 1985 section is the following mentioned: “The Turbo Look 911 Carrera is also available with Targa and Cabriolet bodywork.” Mr. Aichele moves on to a VIN analysis, as well as a comprehensive list of total production units built in every year from 1963-1993. Unfortunately, no distinction for M 491 cars is drawn; those VINs simply disappeared inside of either the Carrera or Turbo build numbers.

The same disappearing act occurs in Porsche’s own Technical Specification (Spec) book, specifically the one that covers 1984-1987. A VIN study reveals identification of Coupes, Targas and Cabriolets for different markets (RoW, Japan, Canada, USA, etc.), but there is no specific VIN documentation for a Turbo-Look model, whatever its bodywork might be. I found one listing, under 1984 Carrera information, not Turbo, that 1984 Turbo-Look cars got different 915 transmissions (RoW – 915/69 and USA/Japan – 915/70), as opposed to the 915/67 (regular RoW Carrera) and the 915/68 (regular USA/Japan Carrera). Based on this, one could use the “915/xx” number, found stamped into the bottom of the differential housing, to determine if a 1984 T-L coupe was in fact real, or possibly a fake.

Even Up-Fixin lets us down. We must remember, in fairness to that publication, the articles are re-prints of work done when memories were fresh and everyone knew what was going on. Well, as those works are read today many times holes where explanations would be invaluable exist. In Volume 6 it’s written that, “For the 1984 model year, a limited number of Carreras can be equipped with the new 930 performance body and chassis option. This option consists of all of the 930 body and chassis features including: large front and rear spoilers, wider 16” wheels, 917-type brake calipers and cross-drilled rotors.”

Unfortunately, no mention was made that the option was only available on coupes, or that rumor had it that two Cabriolets had also been built. Now we’ll move to Volume 7, and read the “New from Porsche in 1986” chapter. Within the text it is written that, “The 911 Carrera can again be specially ordered with 911 Turbo bodywork in coupe, Targa and cabriolet configurations.” The keyword in that sentence is “again,” which implies that the same cars could have also been ordered in 1985. What about 1985, and what was new? I can find no such discussion. More information might be found in the hundreds of pages of technical Q & A, but I have not had success.