Help Please! 964 complete wiring loom into 911?

[911heaven]

Dear All,

I'm a new guy and in the process of installing the complete wiring loom from a 964 (unfortunately tiptronic) into a 89' Carrera body that was originally RUF-ized and Turbo look with the 964 Turbo body panels (by RUF). Unfortunately the RUF went into the ocean just over 10 years ago where after I got it from an insurance co. here in Japan.

I know it sounds crazy to put that loom into the 911 body, but the salt water destroyed the original Ruf gear including the motor (BTR 3.3) and especially the original loom and RUF ECU. I salvaged the RUF 6 speed and will use it with a (bored up) 3.8 964 motor and stock computer, all the 964 systems nearly including oil tank/lines, AC compressor/lines to the 911 blower.

I'll have several questions, but first just a couple to keep it simple.

1. I've heard the super cup 964 clutch is a good option. But will it fit this set up with the 3.6 and the R50-50 tranny? Any ideas?
2. RUF factory cut out the front of the car for an oil cooler up front, so as a spare tire won't fit into it's space. I have the front mount oil cooler with fans/shrouds (2). I want to use the 964 oil cooler with the sensors/blower fan. I want to use both. Is it silly to try this? Seems a shame to waste that concave space up up front.

Thanks for your help,

Bernard

[sc_rufctr]

Bernard

I can't help with any advice but it sounds like you have a lot of work ahead of you.

Good luck with the project.

[Bill Verburg]

Originally Posted by Bernard Plett

Dear All,

I'm a new guy and in the process of installing the complete wiring loom from a 964 (unfortunately tiptronic) into a 89' Carrera body that was originally RUF-ized and Turbo look with the 964 Turbo body panels (by RUF). Unfortunately the RUF went into the ocean just over 10 years ago where after I got it from an insurance co. here in Japan.

I know it sounds crazy to put that loom into the 911 body, but the salt water destroyed the original Ruf gear including the motor (BTR 3.3) and especially the original loom and RUF ECU. I salvaged the RUF 6 speed and will use it with a (bored up) 3.8 964 motor and stock computer, all the 964 systems nearly including oil tank/lines, AC compressor/lines to the 911 blower.

I'll have several questions, but first just a couple to keep it simple.

1. I've heard the super cup 964 clutch is a good option. But will it fit this set up with the 3.6 and the R50-50 tranny? Any ideas?
2. RUF factory cut out the front of the car for an oil cooler up front, so as a spare tire won't fit into it's space. I have the front mount oil cooler with fans/shrouds (2). I want to use the 964 oil cooler with the sensors/blower fan. I want to use both. Is it silly to try this? Seems a shame to waste that concave space up up front.

Thanks for your help,

Bernard

1) I use the Cup clutch in mine, seems to work fine.
2) The 964 oil cooler is tough to fit in a 911 chassis, 964/993 mount them longitudinally. 911 doesn't really have the room for that. I'd mount a Ruf or maybe B&B valance mount cooler in the Ruf front bumper, again that's what I did. A valance mount should be all you need unless the car is tracked in which case just get the biggest valance mount you can find.

[group911@aol.co]

Was the original car a 911 or 964? If 911, why a 964 loom?
If 964, you should get the correct non tip loom.
I agree with Bill. The early cars would be really hard to adapt the 964 cooler to and a bigger front cooler would probably do it.

[911heaven]

Thank you Peter, Bill and group911@aol.com!

Peter, Thanks again, I've already done some work in the last 2 months so I'm half way there. I cut about 10 holes in the 911 body for the loom, including 2 holes for door harnesses from the 964 doors. Also I stole about 10 mounts from the 964 for oil tank, coils, ground wires, fuel filter, washer tank, horns etc etc. and even cut out the area for the oil element mount and fitted the 964 oil filler pipe behind that. All these have already been welded onto the 911 body, painted up and ready. The loom is already into the car, but parts are not assembled yet.

Thanks also Bill and group911@aol.com! I agree, the 964 stock cooler is not fitting just yet. I haven't had time to really look it over and work on it; however, I thought once I get to it and start cutting and pasting, perhaps build a custom mount, it may fit inside the wide turbo fender/964 turbo bumper. Haven't tried yet. What do you think?

The car will just be a long time keeper and weekend cruiser, so as long as the stock cooler works well it would suffice. On the other hand, I'm trying to keep some semblance of RUF which the car had even though it is not an original RUF chassis. Hence the desire to mount the RUF oil cooler I have. But it won't work with the 964 sensors. You're right, I should have gone with 911 loom or 964 manuel. I looked for years for one of those, but this tiptronic car came up this summer and I just bought it. I want to drive this car before I die, but I've had it for over a decade. I guess I just thought I could make it work like this, just plug and play. I've labeled every wire and know where they go, I've traded the Tip speedo and computer already straight across for a manuel speedo and computer. I hope it will plug and play ok. What do you think?

If you all don't mind, can I ask question #3?

3: I've had the Ruf gagues overhauled new 10 years ago by a shop in North Holleywood. I've stored them. Now I don't think I can use them via plug and play obviously. I've put them up for sale this week in Japan on the auction to raise money for a clutch. I thought better to use the 964 gagues. With a little re-wiring can they be used? Of course the boost gague is irrelevant since I'm going NA. What do you think? I'd like to use them.

Many Thanks,

Bernard

[group911@aol.co]

Bernard
If I understand correctly, the RUF gauges are early and you want to use the 964's.
With your 964 loom, all the correct wire ends are in place so they should work. What may not work are all the warning lights unless you have all the sensors in place.
Lots of people have fit the 964 gauges to the early cars so doing this shouldn't be an issue. Do a search on this conversion and it may help.
Good luck.

[Bill Verburg]

It's your car and your money

964/993 oil cooler looks like this




the chassis is designed to duct air inot and out of it

a 911 is not designed that way

the Ruf cooler is designed for 911 use


or use a B&B in a Ruf bumper like I did

[911heaven]

[911heaven]

Thank you very much group911@aol.co!

I was able to cancel my auction on the RUF gauges yesterday thanks to you. I'm glad to still have them since it looks like I can use them. I would regret having gotten rid of them even for a good price if I could keep them and use them. Thanks to you I think I can.

Much thanks!
Bernard

[911heaven]

It seems a shame to cut into a perfectly good 911 body I know. The hole I cut which I regret now is the big one next to my left hand. That picture is an inside joke over here since the Japanese word for cresent wrench is "monkey wrench". So the joke is I'm the monkey up to no good.

Truthfully the car doesn't owe me much. The 964 parts I didn't need are sold already this summer (lots of RS, wheels, brakes etc) so I got the motor and loom and electronics for basically free, plus my time. The RUFized 911 Carerra was 4K 10 years ago. I sold the intercooler for 1K years ago, but put 3K into repaint. I guess I'm not worried about resale or whatever may cause it to depreciate by my monkey business. Just want to build it like an ol' Harley, or Porsche to my liking. I hope you wise gentlemen will continue to coach me. I have still lots of questions... if you don't mind.

Why do I regret the big hole? Well, the 964 grommit fits perfectly in, but I realized later that that part of the loom I need to cut back to the fuse box, all ABS mostly. I could have run those wires for the fuel pump or tank from inside the bonnet. Guess I wasn't thinking.

Regarding the pix you sent, that oil cooler for front seems a little longer than my hole up front. I'd hate to cut up more of the car to weld in a custom mount for stock 964/993 cooler. Maybe though I should try to keep the systems stock 964 with all the sensors. It gets hot in Japan, and traffic can come into play. What do you think?

I'll send you a few more pix of the engine room, oil tank so you can see what I'm up to or up for?

Best Regards,
Bernard

[Bill Verburg]

Originally Posted by Bernard Plett

....Regarding the pix you sent, that oil cooler for front seems a little longer than my hole up front. I'd hate to cut up more of the car to weld in a custom mount for stock 964/993 cooler. Maybe though I should try to keep the systems stock 964 with all the sensors. It gets hot in Japan, and traffic can come into play. What do you think?

...[/img]

The cab on the right in your pics is a 911 chassis setp for a Ruf valance mounted cooler.

My silver car has the same bumper as the 911 RUff CTR originally had. My cooler in that car is a standard B&B it fits very well and has cooled 3.6 and 3.8RS engines on 100*F days. For track use I'd want a bigger one of the same style. But for normal street use its fine. If really heavy city traffic is an issue add a 911 Carrera fender mount w/ fan in series w/ the valance mount.

Take a look at the chassis on the 964 to the left, the oil coolers are fed by chassis ducts which do not exist on the 911.

[group911@aol.co]

I agree with BIll. Try it without an additional cooler and if it' snot suffecient, add the pre 964 cooler. Your chassis already has all the brackets for it and the sensors may retrofit.
How about the HVAC system?
I see the 964 fuel tank there. Are you trying to use that as well?

[911heaven]

Your advice sounds good, and I trust your experience in this.

I guess originally I didn't know what you meant by "valance". It's not part of my register yet. Now it seems to me that it means "front" mount cooler. I still haven't had a chance to take pix of the RUF front oil cooler with it's fans (2) front and back. It's already bolt up for this car, but the wiring/sensors are the problem. I'd like to take some pix which I don't have now, and ask you about it later. I hope you will assess the value of that system when I send the pix. It may be older technology, but that cooler seems to be pretty beefy i.e. thick. Please wait for the pix if you don't mind. It may take me a week since I'm very busy teaching English to Japanese, but please bear with me on this.

I have another question if you don't mind. You can see that the car has big spacers on the rear hubs, like two inches thick. You can see from photos that the RUF wheels are pretty deep dish on the rear or front and 17 inch. This car had big brakes all the way round. I blasted those calipars 10 years ago and painted them red, but all I could do then was darker red due to (high heat) paint options in this country. The origal color was black calipar with red RUF logo on them. I want to blast them again and get a Ferrari (new i.e. bright) color with the white "RUF" logo I have on them now.

My problem and the question:

With the spacers, one can't quite see the calipars on rear. Even with the 17 inch up front it is harder to see those BIG brakes. I want to show those big calipars with a RUF white emblem!! Moreover, I want to keep the RUF wheels to keep the semblance of RUF on this car.

I don't think that is possible however. Did Speedline/RUF ever make an 18" wheel to fit this configuration? I did buy a set of 18" RUF wheels/tires on Yahoo auction about 6 years ago for 2K, but after fitting them realized they were not right. I sold them the next week and got back my money.

Last part of the question, my 89 carrera rear lower arms seem to be different from 930 Turbo. At least through 88' since I just sold an 88' turbo. There were no spacers on that car. So why are there spacers on this RUF-ized car? Is it because it is a Carrera and not a TURBO 930 chassis? How can I best show off those calipars in red and keep RUF wheels to keep the semblance. 18 inch is my hope.

[Bill Verburg]

Ruf(early)came in the following sizes 10.0 ET5.0, 9.0 ET17.7, 8.0 ET30.0

correct for your chassis is either the 8 or 9 front depending on hubs & spacers and 10 rear w/o spacer(if you have a real Ruf chassis )

[911heaven]

Thank your group911@aol.com!!

You and Bill have helped me so much and I can't thank you enough.


You mentioned the HVAC system and the 964 gas tank. HVAC is still not part of my register forgive me, but if its related to the gas tank, I'm thinking it has to do with the charcoal canistar? If so, either way I won't be using the 964 tank.

I have a good friend here who is an engineer and a car restoration pro. His name is Ikki san. He has his own shop, and he only works on foreign cars. All his customers are rich, and few, and he does work for them only. He has been my friend in Japan for over 10 years and has helped me in this project. This last summer he helped me but he didn't. He made me buy a welder, a paint gun, and tools I needed. Lots of chemicals for the job, rust remover, another rust chemical for welding whereiin rust doesn't happen, Zinc paint spray, rubber spray etc. He's very helpful and he's a brother for me. 10 years ago he helped me repaint this car, and it was his sand blaster I used to get started. Needless to say he has been a teacher for me and helped me for over 10 years on this project. I have to give him credit. Such a man in Japan is unheard of.

I still need your advice too however. Ikki san, knowing how long I'd been on this project, and knowing how much I wanted to finish it up over 10 years advised me to cut into the 911. He's got a machine shop, works on cars for rich customers, makes parts when they aren't available. A pretty good guy. He advised me to abandon the RUF front oil cooler and go with the 964 system. Therefore, as you see, I'm asking you for advice, but I'm somewhat obliged to listen to Ikki san. I'm still my own man. I can choose as I please. Just letting you know what I'm up against.

The gas tank was never an issue once we really looked it over. It won't fit, nor will the A/C unit etc. I sold the gas tank finally, parts I didn't need. But I have a question about the fuel system. I'll save it for now. I'm just really thankful for your effort to assist me in this project despite the opposing force of Mr. Ikki.

Best

Bernard

[911heaven]

To anyone that can advise, especially Bill and group911@aol.com,

I've been trying to research a little on Google for the 3.6 swap, parts in general. I found Bodymotion. They talk about engine mounts or fuel lines, pulleys etc. Some of the parts they are recommending are B&B parts, some are theirs.

Without asking some questions that may be common place, can you point me in the right direction to research it?

A couple of hard to figure questions I have are:

1. I want to use the 3.6 A/C compressor on the motor with all the 964 pipeing from engine room up to the smuggler box area wherein I'll make custom pipeing to fit the 89' 930 apparatus therein. Can that 964 compressor work with the mounting of a 3.6 up to the 911 configured R50-50 6 speed with the 964 engine hangar and pulley system, and 964 pipeing to the compressor? I don't want to use the 3.2 A/C compressor.

2. Regarding exhaust, the car I have, is a 89' Carrera 911 with wide body 964 Turbo body kit bumbers front and back, rocker panels etc. The original RUF muffler that came out of the car is twin port to fit the 930 turbo rear bumper. The car was Rufized and had a 3.3 RUF stock motor, but the "RUF" muffler fit the 930 rear twin port bumper. I repainted that bumper 10 years ago and intend to use it. How can I go NA with a 3.6 3.8) and get a muffler to fit perfect into my 930 turbo twin port bumper?

Thanks much to anyone for your advice!

Bernard

[911heaven]

I'm sorry everyone, I made a typo at the end there. To be clear, my repainted bumper is 964 Turbo, not 930 Turbo. The former has twin ports closer to the inside of the bumper as you know very well. This was the bumper that came with the Ruf muffler that is corroded from the sea. If I can use it with this swap, is there an available muffler system for NA on 3.6? That is the quesiton.

Thank you!

[group911@aol.co]

Bernard
Regarding the a/c piping to the front, it's pretty specific to the 964 body. You can probably cut another hole for th elines to exit the engine bay on the left side but when they get to the front, it's a lot different in the way they cross to the blowers.
On a pre 964, they go under and up into the smugglers box and on a 964, they go through the fenderwell and to the large HVAC system that you aren't installing.
I don't have a clue on the engine or exhasut swap questions.
Bob

[911heaven]

Thank you Bob for the reply!

Yeah! I know what you mean about from the fenderwell onward. Haven't really looked at it too closely, but planned to get inside the fenderwell and then, just customize it to fit. I'm moving at snail pace now, but will get free for a couple months in Feb.

The damage I did on the project in summer got me half way. You'll see above on the engine room left side photo (I posted) I've cut that hole for the 964 pipeing, also the studs are welded in for the proper fitting on outer mount (964). Sorry no photo from outside. As you mentioned there is a problem with the pipeing in that it will hit the Pre 964 (911) jack mounts etc. I was planning to grind these out or cut them down a bit (havent' yet). Since I have the 964 Turbo rocker panels on this car all this will be hidden and will fit I believe. Moreover, as Bill mentioned, this car has the valance retro fit for a Ruf cooler up front; therefore, I have no space in the bonnet area for a spare tire. Hence I won't be able to use the jack even if I get a flat. I'll have to join the Japan Auto Federation for 40 dollars a year so they can tow the car for free if I get a flat. Oh well.

I really appreciate your advice Bob as well as everyone. I'm learning as I go with this project. I've learned over time that if you go slow, you can't make too many mistakes. This is true. But I need your advice and expertise because I'm learning as I go. That is the nature of a project.

If I can ask another question.. I have this 911 body, running a 3.8 NA with a Turbo 6 speed tranny (3.3). How is that going to work on a street car. The Ruf 6 speed is meant for a Turbo engine. If I have a high response 3.8 i.e. light weight clutch or even a chip, is it going to perform differently from say a car with an NA tranmission?

Thanks again,

Bernard

[Bill Verburg]

The 2 best sources for 3.6 t/p parts are Timmons and Patrick

To retain A/C it's best to adapt the 911 lines to the 993 compressor or 993 lines back in the engine compartment.

turbo trans are generally not a good match for n/a engines. The turbos tend to be geared very tall. It's hard to be more specific w/o knowing actual gear ratios or tooth counts.