Sure, come out and bring your monster, Mike. It'd be nice to see what a real race car would do out there.

Any yes, it was great working with WEVO on this- I learned a lot...

Thanks very much Matteo, yours is still one of my favorites.
BTW, the down-side of going water cooled vs the 9M route you took is weight. Between the heavier motor and all the water a Cup motor is closing on 100 lbs total heavier than an air cooled solution. I suspect the water cooled options still go to higher powers at equal durability, however...

A couple more pics- first the inside of the tail lights. You get a pretty good idea of how these are done here:
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1263005175.jpg

Also a couple of the clutch setup. Part of the reason, with the superlite flywheel, Ti rods, etc, that it revs like a light switch.
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1263005210.jpg

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1263005220.jpg

Randy, I actually think the metal work around the rear suspension is my favorite bit. If you look closely the swaybar mounts are relocated for extra ground clearance, the trans mount is custom, etc. It just all blends together in such a way it's subtle how much was actually done. All wevo...

-Pete

Thanks for posting these photos. Great car and build story. Thanks for sharing.

I've always wanted to see the fabled 964 based GT motor.

It looks beautiful with the traditional centres, water cooled cylinders and heads.

Pete!!!

Absolutely spectacular work! The engineering and design is outstanding, very well thought project…

I’d be very interested in getting some details on the torsion tube mods?!?

Best,
Carl

Time for a poll: Would you choose this car or Black Beauty? Decisions decisions....

No brainer....Pete's car is light years ahead. This has set a new bar for early 911 hot rod execution.

Doug

amen brother!

Mechanically yes, appearance-wise also? And does Pete ever include a self-portrait? ;)

The cars are really so different that's a difficult question to answer. They seem similar on the face, but Jack's car's going to be much easier to live with. It will be much quieter- the cage doesn't pick up the suspension points, it's got a real exhaust, etc. He's got removable door bars. He's got a street motor with idle control- no need to warm up, just jump in and go.

PVX is really a thinly disguised race car, and as such is much less livable. The cup motor needs to warm up before it's driven, and even when it does it idles north of 1500 rpm. It's loud, it has no heater, no defrost... It's just all around more hard-core. So it's an apples and oranges comparison. Which one you'd prefer depends on what you plan to do with it.

I am really going to need both for a weekend in order to post a valid reply.

They are both great. These are THE salient points in my mind, it's all about personal preferences at a certain point, and you have both crossed that point.

The tail and brake lights look indeed like the age-old "Ultimates" sold by Pegasus, HRP and others. 4 x $49 just for the lights. One our racers uses these on his '69 911 car. There are other LED choices from the motorcycle world-- I plan to use some of these when I fab up some light brake lights for my car as they are much cheaper.

This project is really cool for a number of reasons, but comparing to Jack's or any other is a very hard thing to do. We must note that many, many hot rod projects have been executed and chronicled based on 911 family cars and engines through the years-- not many are discussed here. Excellence and Pano have had many articles on such cars, including at least one 911 with a 962 motor that was, as I recall, put together years ago. In the future, we may see a GT3 RSR or Porsche Daytona protoype engine in a 914-- I might expect to see that.

As far as comfort for street driving, there are lots of variables of course. One of the cool things about Porsche's family of cars, particularly the 911, is all of the fun things that can be done to them.

Consider a car like mine from a few years ago... mid-70's 911 with composite later-model bodywork and a modest interior, a cage and a weight of about 1950 pounds. Then consider (unlike mine) a 3.8 twin turbo motor installed in it. Who knows how much power-- north of 700 for sure. Now this car also has heat, and is driven, not infrequently, on the owner/builder's ~45 minute commute to work (on street tires, not slicks). Now consider that this car is also raced, and it shows up at PCA Club Racer at Laguna and beats all of the other cars, including highly modified GT3 Cups. Now the car has different body work, an engine with slide valves and is active in vintage racing.

Lots of things can and have been done with these cars. To me, what makes this project so cool (and I can't wait to see the car again) is the clearly collaborative design process that went into it, as well as the owner's realization of his personal dream.

:)

Really enjoying this. Spectacular results.

Can you tell us more on the cooling system design & size of pipes?

Did you calculate the BTU loss required for this motor?

Glad to see you kept the nose intact.

Has it worked out to your satisfaction?

Len

:)

:)
I like your coolant line layout so much I am planning something similar.
Any difficulty with bleeding the system?
It appears that the coolant tubes are higher at the fenders than the expansion tank.
Please correct me if I am wrong.
Len
:)

The water expansion tank is on the left side of the engine. It's higher than the coolant tubes. The tank in the trunk is oil.

The ultimate compliment... Thanks.

The expansion tank/ air spring is the highest point in the system save the bleed lines, which is why it's located so high at the back.

The system is self-bleeding. The high points of the tubing each have spigots with small diameter lines running back to the air-spring. You can see one of these lines coming off here:
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1267643153.jpg
The lines then run along the roof behind the cage back to the expansion tank. This eliminates the need to bleed the system...

The systems is working great so far, but it has yet to get hot enough for a worst case test.

Quick update:

We're continuing to get the car ready for One Lap of America next month. That means a number of changes for that event:

Given that the rules require 140 or greater treadwear street tires, and the best tires are only available in lager sizes, we've got a second set of race wheels- 9x18 front and 11x 19 rear for 235 and 305 tires. Those are getting mounted today with Bridgestone RE050A N1 tires- we'll see how they do in the wet shortly.

We're also mounting a wing from a GT3 cup car with a splitter to complete the aero package. Finally we're going to a revised equal length header system for the exhaust which should improve power and torque...

Whether or not the car actually needs more power is debatable. So far, despite the fact that the car is geared to 60 mph in 1st, I haven't been able to get it to stick that gear despite the 315 V710s. We're playing with settings to get it to put power down better. Not a bad problem to have, but wheel-spin in a straight line up through 3rd gear on occasion (geared to a bit over 100 mph) keeps you on your toes...

More to follow. So far it's great fun :)

Pete: any reason you selected the RE050As vs. the RE-11s?

Basically wet performance Steve- I chose them after quite a bit or research and some discussions with an OEM tire tester who give me some very good input with regards to wheel diameter, etc...

The points system at One Lap heavily favors consistency, and there are always a few wet events. The way the points stack up almost always mean it's better to be slightly slower in the dry events and faster in the wet rather than vice-versa. I've had a set of regular RE-050As before and haven't been blown away, but the following quote from Excellence Magazine by a Porsche engineer swayed my into thinking the N1 spec is significantly better, especially in the wet:

"Interestingly, says project manager August Achleitner, Bridgestone recently introduced a normal high-performance tire called the Potenza RE050A. The N1 version is Porsche-specific and used on the new Turbo. The surprise, says Achleitner, is that its grip levels are not far off Michelin’s Cup tire. Being a normal tire, it also has enough tread depth when new to offer good aquaplaning resistance in wet-weather conditions.

“Pirelli has a new PZero N2 on the way that will also be good in the wet, but not quite as good as the Bridgestone,” he says."

The few test of cars on the N1 spec Bridgestone seem to confirm that it's very good. Road & Track tested the Boxster Spyder at 1.01 Gs in the dry on them, while the new turbo was tested by EVO at 0-60 in 3.2 seconds and 60-0 in 113 feet in the wet. They certainly have more void area than the also very good RE-11, which is neck and neck with the PZero N2 spec for my second choice. I suspect all three tires are very good. We'll see...

I read today that the 2010 turbo was clocked at 0-60 in 2.9 ...which aint shabby! That 3.2 in the wet is astounding. of course, it is AWD...but still!

So we've had a couple trials and tribulations, but we're making progress.

The only significant issue we've had so far is the starter. The 13:1 compression ratio from the GT3 Cup motor has eaten two starter ring gears so far in about 200 starts. Hayden's got a little writeup on the wevo blog here:
Welcome to Windrush Evolutions - WEVO Blog
Basically the shortened bell housing required the use of an early starter, unsupported on the end of the pinion. First we tried a lightweight starter, then we tried a regular early starter... Same result:
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1268788264.jpg
Not ideal...
It looks like Hayden's come up with a good solution, however:
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1268789171.jpg
Above is a 993 Tiptronic starter next to an early starter. The 993 tip starter is supported on the far side of the pinion- much stronger. The fact that it saves a three pounds and starts the car better is a bonus. Hot tip- I suspect it fits a 915 as well :)
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1268789305.jpg
We stripped the starter ring gear at an autocross Sunday afternoon and the car was back on the road by Tuesday! Nice...

Other than the starter issue the car's been reliable so far. Given that basically everything is new that's almost surprising... We made it to another event on Sunday, still trying to shake the car down for One Lap, which is now just a month and a half away. Sunday was fun:
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1268789426.jpg
The car's wearing the new set of Forgelines for One Lap. Rear tire clearance is tight (!) but no rubbing...

Steve, you were probably right about the RE050A N1s. After doing a couple events on them the are not terribly impressive on such a light car. One way or another we're massively traction limited, though it does stick first gear (.9 Gs, 60 mph!).

I've got a set of RE-11s- we should get to try them this Saturday at another event. Good times :)

:)

Curious as to how the 993 Tiptronic Starter is working out?

Len

:)

Also curious about when the starter sees the most work. When the motor is cold, or after it warms-up?

The starter is working very well so far. Still getting miles on it. And it can get a workout when the car's cold- it likes to warm up a little.

We made it to the dyno the other day- it made a bit over 380 at the wheels on the Dynapack.
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1270073826.jpg
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1270073002.jpg
We also found that it's pulling in hotter air than expected past the exhaust, so we're working on making some changes to get cooler air in. Should help power as well...

Need to work on the setup still- haven't figured out the street tires yet, probably running the shocks too stiff, maybe some other issues. Getting there.

30 days until One Lap!

Do you have torque numbers/graph?

Very nice project BTW.

You can create it.

HP x rpm = torque x 5250
HP = torque x 5250 / rpm

Doug

Yep. 272 ft lbs at the wheels @ 6500 and 7200. Only 190 @ 3500, though...

Hi Pete,

Forgive me if I missed it.....what size radiators are you running in the fenders? Have you had any cooling issues?

Thanks

Pete:

How has this car been on the auto-x course?
Has it been up to your expectations?

Times good?
Hooking up alright?
Complete satisfaction with the total package so far?

-Doug

The rads are a bit bigger than 9" by 16" each for the cores. So far we have not had any overheating issues, but it hasn't been terribly hot. Iddling or in stop and go traffic the temp is climbs vs driving, so we're improving the fan setup to cope with 100+ degree days. So far it looks like it'll do fine with those rads, though.

I've been autocrossing when I'm in town to dial in the suspension, and it's improving a fair bit. I'm dialing it in on the 180 treadwear street tires required for One Lap, which is tricky as the car would prefer much more tire. That said I was 5th out of 91 cars last weekend, .2 seconds out of third. It's putting power down well now, and I'm still a fair bit away from the limit of the car. Improving by nearly a second every event at the moment as the setup gets closer. Grip is low vs everyone on hoosiers and goodyear slicks, but acceleration is insane- I took my first passenger at the AX last weekend- he was pretty blown away.

Thunderhill this Saturday- we'll see how it plays on the big track. So far so good- it's an absolute blast on both the autocross and on the street now that the setup is close.

And yes, very satisfied so far. At first the lack of torque and cold start issues with the Cup motor bugged me, and the suspension setup I'd put on it just wasn't confidence inspiring. But now I'm at that point in development where we're working the issues out and it's just getting better and better every time out. And there are these glimpses, when the car drifts just right and hooks up, that it's just unbelievable. Good times :)

The front splitter is on, and the rear wing goes on this week...

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1271213087.jpg

:)

Curious, how did the "One Lap" work out?

Len

:)

Can't believe I missed this post. Just catching up. Beautiful car, truly amazing. Cant believe how straight the door lines panels are. Makes my car look crude at best. Quick question; Why not Toyo R1s full tread? I have them on my car ~2450lbs ~600hp turbo motor. Maybe its' the way I drive it but don't have much of a problem breaking loose. I'm using 335/30/18s. Also, Steve hows the white beast treating you?

any updates? awesom project.

The rules for One Lap of America dictated "140" minimum treadwear rating. No DOT-R compounds allowed.

Yes, I'm quite over-due for an update. I didn't really feel like posting...

Unfortunately my friend put the car into the wall at Thunderhill while testing for One Lap. While he was OK apart from a sore neck, the car has been down for the count for some time, hence the lack of updates.

The car hit on the right front into the tire barrier, took out the radiator, bumper, fender, damaged the hood... The cage and chassis strengthening did a very good job of limiting the damage to that corner, so we were able to put it back to basically new- very happy (and lucky) it didn't turn out worse. I just went to see the car yesterday and it's basically back to original condition, perhaps a little better as we took the chance to make a few changes. We replaced both the fiberglass front fenders with steel and carbon- these are a couple pounds heavier, but stronger and have a little better shape and wheel clearance. We also did the front bumper out of carbon this time as well instead of fiberglass, pretty much saved the weight we added with the fenders.

Other changes- did some re-gearing, as 1 & 2 were not working as I'd expected at the autocross. It would stick first, but it was just slightly too short at 59 mph for nearly every straight, while 2nd didn't have the torque down low. The result was I was shifting ~8 times on the average course, and I couldn't make it pay, so a more traditional ~68 mph 2nd gear is going in. I'm also trying quicker steering rack (also for the AX- the normal one was fine at the track) and have made some changes to the brake master cylinders. We've completed the track aero package, improved the shifter, etc...

So that's the story- I guess these things happen sometimes if you use these cars as intended. I'll try and post some pics and update when I'm back out there.

****e Pete, sorry to hear of the setback. Thankfully your friend was not hurt badly. Rebuilt and better than she was by the sounds of it......

Anyways, still one of the best builds EVER!!!

i feel your pain. glad you are optimistic and didn't loose you composure..

Can't wait to see it back on the road. The gearing should be much better.

"Thankfully your friend was not hurt badly." ...yes, he's a mutual friend of ours and got away with just a sore neck.

Kojo911 - the white beast is great, pretty much dialed in now - although I'm not sure how long I'll keep it...

so sorry man...

Peter, so sad to hear. But glad there were no injuries and the car is back together. Truly one of the best builds ever.

Steve, are you getting an itch for something different?

Where do you obtain one of these quick ratio steering racks? after racing karts and formula cars thats my one pet peeve about sports cars. tooooo many turns to lock!

I'm trying this one from Germany:
Porsche 911 - 914 Rennsport Lenkung im Tausch - Albert - Motorsport
2.5 turns lock to lock. The jury is still out on quality- it's higher friction than the stock one that came out; we'll see if it loosens up a little with use.