Your favorite 911 design flaws?

[Formerly Steve Wilkinson]

Don't even bother to read this post if you feel the 911 is a perfect car, but I'm trying to put together a list of the 911's basic design flaws, for a project I'm working on. I don't mean things that got fixed as models improved--overly hot thermal reactors, chain tensioners, balky gearboxes, etc.--I mean stuff that throughout the history of the car cried out for some more imaginative engineering. Stuff like the fact that the crucial oil lines to the cooler are exposed and crush-prone, that there has to be a better way of measuring oil quantity than Porsche's at-idle-only gauge, that CIS airboxes bust unless you glue in a popoff valve, etc. etc.

Any nominations?

Stephan

[Clark Griswald]

This one will hurt - it shoulda been a mid-engine car. Trying to fix that polar moment problem on the rear was the non-ending challenge. In the words of Ralph Nader, rear engines cars have an "inherent design flaw".

I'm ducking for cover now.



[This message has been edited by Clark Griswald (edited 07-26-2001).]

[TargaEuro]

I really love how dirt, salt and road debris gather in the front bumper shock mounts and cause corrosion to eat right through to the trunk on both sides of my 911. For some reason when the front bumper shock brackets were designed they make a perfect cradle for all kinds of dirt salt and crud to gather in....TargaEuro

[pbs911]

How about these for starters:
a speedometer you cant see while driving; oil guage temps writen in such small numbers you can't see them;
the air conditioning system;
air climate control knobs (just figured that one out after about 2 years).

The latter 2 being "luxury" items so I can't fault Porsche for those.


------------------
Paul
78SC Targa
http://www.pelicanparts.com/gallery/pbs911

[emcon5]

The fact that the controls for the HVAC system are in 3 different locations.

The fact that even though I am only 6 ft tall, my head rubs the headliner.

Tom

------------------
82 911SC Coupe

[Seth Slovik]

Stephan,

How about rocker shafts that are held in by friction! They took almost 30 years to change a mistake solved by the industry in the 1920s. I guess circlips and / or set screws didn't exist in Stutgart in the early 60's. How about inside door handles made of the cheapest and weakest material on the whole car! I'll leave HVAC to the other guys. Thanks for the chance to vent.

Seth
82 Euro SC

[This message has been edited by Seth Slovik (edited 07-26-2001).]

[michaelw]

I have a love/hate relationship with the layout of the dash and all the controls. It's as if someone took all the knobs and controls, threw them in a shotgun and fired them at the front of the cockpit.

Michael
87 targa

[This message has been edited by michaelw (edited 07-28-2001).]

[pwd72s]

Excess brake fluid hose exiting unseen behind the front bumper. Did engineering ever think of what brake fluid does to paint? Or, in the case of race car goodies, fiberglass?

[orbmedia]

The whole twitchy rear suspension design on pre-993 cars which was responsible for so many 911 drivers backing into their shunts.

[wdarner]

The 911 was never perfect. The only cars I have ever owned that I bought and sold without ever taking them back to the shop to "resolve issues" were made in Japan. OK I have owned 10 Hondas/Acuras and 2 Toyotas. I have also owned 2 911's and nothing I have ever owned even came close to the pleasure of driving them. More importantly I bought both of them used. I drove the heck out of the first one ('78 Targa 70K miles) and it never cried. My current '87 Cab only gets driven when I feel like driving a Porsche, thus it is not wasted as a daily driver. The moral of the story = 911's are special - can you imagine being 80 years old, having wanted one and never driven and owned one? - but only Jap cars are perfect. Maybe I should include Dr. Porsche in my daily mantra for the result of his passion has brought me so much plaesure in the material world.

[davis911s]

How about the great TARGA, I love mine but I often wonder if there was ever one made that didn't leak???

Shawn

[pwd72s]

"Now, to put a water-cooled engine in the rear and to have a radiator in the front, that's not very intelligent" -Dr. Ferry Porsche, PORSCHE PANORAMA interview, page 18, October, 1973 issue.

[wdarner]

davis911s,
My '78 targa did not leak. It was a daily driver.

[wdarner]

Originally posted by wdarner:
The 911 was never perfect. The only cars I have ever owned that I bought and sold without ever taking them back to the shop to "resolve issues" were made in Japan. OK I have owned 10 Hondas/Acuras and 2 Toyotas. I have also owned 2 911's and nothing I have ever owned even came close to the pleasure of driving them. More importantly I bought both of them used. I drove the heck out of the first one ('78 Targa 70K miles) and it never cried. My current '87 Cab only gets driven when I feel like driving a Porsche, thus it is not wasted as a daily driver. The moral of the story = 911's are special - can you imagine being 80 years old, having wanted one and never driven and owned one? - but only Jap cars are perfect. Maybe I should include Dr. Porsche in my daily mantra for the result of his passion has brought me so much pleasure in the material world.

[emcon5]

Originally posted by wdarner:
My current '87 Cab only gets driven when I feel like driving a Porsche

Same for me. That is why I drive mine every day.

Tom

------------------
82 911SC Coupe

[Doug Zielke]

Believe it or not, all these "flaws" are what gives the 911 character. That sets it apart from more utilitarian vehicles.

It's similar to my Ducati 916. Full of quirks (like the underseat mufflers that wiil roast your arse in slow traffic), but I'd never trade it for a Hondyamakawazuki.

------------------
'81 SC Coupe (aka: "Blue Bomber")
Canada West Region PCA
The Blue Bomber's Website

[Jack Olsen]

This has been covered once before in a good thread. Unfortunately, it seems to have gone into the black hole of the new search engine.

Oddly, I have my thread that got it started. Here it is:

Porsches are among the best-engineered cars ever produced. To my mind, a Porsche is singular in its ability to function as either a daily street driver or a weekly track racer -- without significant modifications required to focus exclusively on either. The 911, in particular, is a wonder of simplicity, function following form, and inspired, methodical, well though-out engineering.

Pretty much.

Porsche is also a small manufacturer, with limited resources, who started manufacturing a car back in 1963 that they would never have imagined would be available through 1998 (and in a form that still resembles the original beyond 2003). As such, modifications were made on the fly, often with the costs of re-tooling their factory dictating what could or could not be done, with management changes that on more than one occasion deciding that discontinuing the 911 was a wise strategic move.

So there are some things about this car that are, well, not really at the cutting edge of engineering and design. There are a few things about these great cars that are (how shall I say it?)... Downright stupid.

So, in the spirit of healthy self-criticism, I'm going to start a list of the design and engineering aspects of this little car that are part of what makes owning and working on these cars a challenge (albeit a richly rewarding challenge).

Oil Lines on the Outside, down where you would ordinarily feel free to position a jack. I know that this has a lot to do with the original 2-liter engine cooling itself adequately with a fan, but of all the places they could have decided to put the aorta of the car, this seems to have been the worst possible position. Similarly, an oil cooler under the bumper, right in front is also a little peculiar, given the tendency of all nations on the planets to use concrete curbs.

No apparent jack points -- if you manage to get the car raised up without pinching a $500 piece of pipe, it's often anybody's guess where it's best to hold the car up. Considering that these cars were made to be worked on by their driver/owners (at least in the early days), you'd think a clearly indicated jacking point would be in order.

Poor line of sight for speedometer, etc. Sure, I love the big, easy-to-read tach. But what other car in mass production requires you to twist the gauges to crazy angles in order to see when you're driving anywhere near the speed limit?

One idiot light does double duty as the parking brake indicator and oil pressure warning. I don't know how many models this is the case on, but jeez... The difference between one of these situations and the other are pretty significant.

Webasto gasoline fueled heater, right next to the fuel tank. Okay, where do we put the molotov cocktail we've designed as a supplementary heater? How about next to 15 gallons of explosive fuel, which is up front, where head-on collisions happen? I don't know of any problems resulting from this, ever, but it was a gutsy program for the Weissach engineers to even think up.

Counter-intuitive climate control sliders. No other way to describe them. Top one is for fresh air blown in from under the windshield. Next one is, er... sometimes I can remember, and get it to work. But three levers on the dash, and two more down between the seats? Turning on the defrost requires at least four slides? Really?

The 915 transaxle. Nuff said, right? I mean it's not exactly durable, and it's not exactly smooth. Sure, it's an old design, but I've had early-seventies Japanese cars that shifted like late 90s Japanese cars. What was so hard to figure out?

A heating system that can kill you if your exhaust is leaking, or can choke you if your engine leaks oil. It's another one of those moves necessitated by the lack of water cooling, and it almost makes you think changing coolant isn't such a bad idea. It mixes the one clearly toxic part of the car with the one part that sends stuff right into our lungs. It works, as a rule -- but again, who came up with this idea?

Thermal reactors heating up an air-cooled magnesium engine case. I know, it had to be done if they were going to sell cars in the U.S. But the longstanding reputation of the car for reliability and durability was thrown away for the sake of three model years.

Torsion bars - a radical idea, in its day. But not the best idea, ever, or even the best idea for the 911.

A dipstick easily falls into the oil tank . Happens a lot. Some cars had a screen to prevent it. But when you combine the fact that every component of the oil-checking process is counter-intuitive and at odds with virtually all other cars ever manufactured and a dash oil level gauge that is hardly ever useful when you're sitting in the seat since you've got to stop somewhere on a level surface, once the car has warmed up to 190 degrees, in order to check it. Come on...

And how about: A back seat area that is absolutely useless . Someone in a board room said they wanted to sell a four-seater. This meant a more-balanced mid-engine design couldn't happen, and the resulting seats are useful only as a luggage shelf. They look goofy, too.

And finally: a gorgeous body design that your top of the line model's engine can not possibly fit into . The Turbo was a great idea. But why not do something about the design so that you don't have to fabricate a big goofy rear wing just to hold the engine. I like big rear wings just fine, but it's nice to have a wing be a wing because you want (or need) a wing -- not because the intercooler makes the engine to fat to fit in the car.


Well, that's all I can think of off the top of my head. I'm sure there are items on this list that can be construed as a plus rather than a minus. And again: it's my favorite car, ever, so I'm not hear to pick on it just for kicks. I just think no design is ever perfect, and it makes us a stronger community if we can acknowledge a few chinks in Stuttgart's engineering armor.

Any other problem areas I've missed?


------------------
Jack Olsen
My Rennlist home page • My Pelican Gallery page • My Porsche Owners Gallery page

[mjc76]

Wind noise! Just going 65 mph down the freeway it sounds like I'm in a hurricane. Other than that I really have no complaints.
79'sc coupe

[Don in Redondo]

Imagine the surprise on my face when I removed the front lip spoiler on my '67 911S and had approximately 60 lbs of pig iron ingots slam down on my feet........first thought was is this the best that vaunted German engineering could come up with to counterbalance rear engine tailover. Cant think of nor have I seen any other car manufacture use this technique to balance a car design.

Thank goodness the designers made up for this gross shortcoming by producing a superb and unique drive train, along with a very aerodynamic bodywork for its time.

[movin]

Carrera series:
marginal rod bolts, valve guides and seals that don't seem to last as long as a set of tires, cylinder head bolts (time bomb), seals and gaskets (non compatible with synthetic oils), funky electrical fuses, world's most contorted cam drive chain, piss-poor engineered clutch, ill-conceived exhaust header, failure prone DMA relay... Hey! What was the allure here? Sounds like an all too familiar question after the honeymoon is over.