speeding ticket

[Ted Stringer]

I started to post on the other speeding ticket thread and then realised that my post needed its own thread.

I just got a ticket yesterday from a laser reading for 60 in a 45 at night. I’m not trying to do any cop bashing here, but those sounded like the numbers were rounded to me. I was with a pack of larger vehicles, and I believe that he hit another vehicle instead of mine. I don’t know at what speed I was going, he probably was not to far off. I have some other defenses that I am working on.

One of those defenses is a reflective map. I read about a guy that beat a laser ticket with one from his motorcycle. I realize that a 911 is bigger than the motorcycle, but it is my understanding that laser needs a vertical flat reflective surface. Obviously the 911 is short on those. Other defenses are it was at night, hitting a small car that doesn’t do direct reflections well, and the calibration of the sights on the laser gun along with the officers record at the gun range (if the laser is handheld, he can’t be much more accurate with it than with a pistol).

My biggest question is do I stand a chance of winning in court. I know that I need to prepare more than what I have done now. I am going to talk with the officer and find out where he hit the car (if he can’t tell me this, how does he know that it was my car) and other details (suggestions please!) that I need to defend myself. If my case is looking real good I will offer a plea bargain of a no contest plea, and pay fine for no points and no driving school. The thing that I am worrying about is my insurance rates. Paying the fine and pleading no contest is small compared to what would happen if I loose and get 3 or 4 points on a perfect until now record.

[Rustbucket]

Bummer!

Another one of the unfair "taxes" of owning a Porsche.

[jsmarcus]

In the same boat here. My last ticket, and not even in the P, I was in an Audi 1.8T, was "clocked" at 15 mph over...the cut off being 14 for the higher ticket/points. Most judges or Prosecuters will reduce it to the lesser ticket, but not do away with the points all together. It does sound like a speed trap to me. In my case, I was able to take careless driving instead of speeding, 2 points instead of 4.

You can try to plead it down, but you probably won't get it dismissed.

[RoninLB]

Immediately call and join Notional Motorists Ass. 1-800-882-2785 and hit their site www.motorists.com. Plead not guilty. Rent "Legal Defense Kit" Some things on your defense must be done immediately

[Rick Lee]

Don't know about FL, but in VA the court cannot negotiate points -- DMV assigns them. Your best bet as a last resort is to get the cop to knock it down to some no point violation (failure to obey a sign or something). If you plan to fight, I would go all out. Never pass up a chance to cross-examine a cop. If you get the case delayed for a while, the cop probably won't even remember what happened and will look silly reading from notes. Definitely ask about the calibration of the laser gun, when it was last done before your ticket and how long the officer has been qualified to use it. Did he have a print out of the reading? I don't know much about lasers, but radar guns have about a 17 deg. cross section and need a right angle for a good reading. I haven't read the article yet, but the Drudge Report today has a link to a Wash. Times story about radar camera tickets. There may be some info in there for you. I've got my fingers crossed for you -- everyone should fight every ticket.

[Don Wohlfarth]

Ted, it's all about $$$'s.
Get a lawyer and he can probably get the charge reduced, depending on your driving record.
IMHO you don't want to go to court and try to be Perry Mason. It will turn out to be a he said, she said, type of deal and the cop will win. After all, he's a trained professional.
In traffic court the judge is interested in convictions (it really isn't important what the charge is), $$$'s, and moving on to the next case.
Of course you can try and make a federal case out of it, show how incompetent the cop is, how the equipment fails to work properly, the circumstances of how it was impossible for the cop to isolate you from the group of cars, and how unfair all of this is to a safe driver. Then you have a chance to work with the DMV because of the points on your license and your insurance company that wants to increase your rates or cancel you.
Seems like a simple choice.

[avi8torny]

The officer that wrote your speeding ticket is looking through crosshairs on the Laser Gun. He didn't just pick you out of the blue, your vehicle had a "visual history" well before he pulled the trigger. Training teaches him/her to recognize speed with a visual estimate first and then supports his estimate with a display from a doppler, vascar or laser device. They can write you a ticket on the visual estimate only, but they usually don't. Supporting information definately helps their case. Your not going to fool them with a line of questioning. They have done this before.

If you show up at trial with your mail order defense kit, you will be disappointed with the results. The judge will not entertain any legal issues relative to the accuracy of speed supporting devices. There is much case law supporting those issues. If you want to make a case on that issue you will have to file in a higher court. Read more $$$$$$$$$$$...alot more.

So back to the bottom line....show up at court when the assistant District Attorney is their and ask to talk to him/her, write a nice letter to the judge owning up to the fact that you were speeding or higher an attorney to do the same thing. Take your lumps.

On another note...Richard commented that Radar only gives a good reading at right angles. In reality Radar works on the cosine effect, and a right angle is 90 degrees. The cosine of 90 is ZERO. Radar works best straight on the target, either coming or going...I think he is mistaken.

tdowling
87 911

[jeff91C2T]

These are always interesting threads. I can share my experience for what it's worth....

I'm a Washington State resident. Got a ticket for doing 42 in a 25. Total BS ticket. Was I speeding....you bet. Should the speed limit have been 25....no way. Just happened to be a great place to generate revenue for the police.

I got the ticket dropped. Here's what I learned. Suppena (sp??) the cop was a "big" mistake. If the cop shows up (and they usually do) they (lawyers and judge) will rip you a new a-hole. Remember they do this stuff a lot more then you do. Calling in the cop just pisses them off. Before my court date I sat in on a few sessions just to watch and try and learn "the game". And believe me it's a game, the lawyers game. If you try and play lawyer on your own the odds are stacked against you. I felt bad for those that showed up thinking they had a case. They were made fools of by the judge.

I hired a lawyer, who talked to the court attorney, and negotiated a deal (class and no new tickets for 6 months) to have the ticket dropped. So my record is still clean. All this is done before you even get in front of the judge.

If your serious about getting the ticket dropped I'd highly recommend a lawyer familiar with the court your going to (ie...he/she nows the judge or court attorney). If you don't hire a lawyer, I'd still fight it. After all you've already got the ticket, might as well go through the motions.

[R22tech]

I have an idea that worked for me on my pickup truck. Long story short: Put new larger tires on-went on vacation-got 3 speeding tickets in 4 days. I WAS speeding knowingly 2/3. I got out of 1 ticket and had the speeds reduced on the other 2 by doing this:
1- went to speedo shop and had a calibration test done, was off by a few mph (i.e. 55mph indicated/58mph actual)
2- called each clerks office and asked to get in touch with officer who wrote tickest.
3-told officers POLITELY " After I got the ticket you wrote me, i got ANOTHER one! I thought I was being careful, since I just got a ticket from you but was charged with speeding again! I thought to myself-something is wrong here. Then I remembered I just got new larger tires put on, so I went and had the speedo checked and, sure enough, it was off! So I'm not asking you to throw out the ticket, but if you can adjust the speed based on the difference from the calibration test-I will plead guilty and pay the fine."

The one ticket I got out of was like 41/30- he just said I'll take care of it and good luck with the other ticket.
The other 2 tickets were reduced by the officers to just 9mph over the speed limit-which means small fine and no-or very few points.

I bet if you get your speedo tested-it will be off, probably on the WRONG side to help you. But the officers don't know this and frankly didn't seem interested in the details. This way, you aren't trying to prove HE made a mistake, just that there were outside circumstances that caused you to be speeding.

My opinion and experience has been- YOU WILL LOSE IN COURT NO MATTER HOW YOU SHAKE THE STICK! I have never hired a lawyer for this though, so I don't know if they can get you out of it.

[Rick Lee]

Sorry guys -- I disagree. I have beaten a lot of tickets in court -- I mean a lot. Sometimes the judge is a hard-a$s, both on defendants and cops. I've seen a cop get reamed by a judge for shuffling papers, trying to find his notes on my case -- and I won when he just said I blew through a right turn on red without first stopping. Yes, in a lot of places going to court is part of the good ole boy/patronage network. Pay a lawyer, who used to work with the prosecutor and probably has beers with the judge. It all depends on where you live. But I've won some when my case was weak -- and I've lost a few when my case was strong. I think I mentioned before here that I once saw the entire courtroom get dismissed when the night court judge wanted to get home in time to watch Nancy Kerrigan skate on tv. Think of how many people could have come to court that night, but just went ahead and paid. ALWAYS fight the ticket. As long as you're polite and professional (dress nicely too), you'll at least get a reduced fine, if not full dismissal. I've seen some really outrageous cases (passing stopped school buses, etc) get tossed because the defendant knew how to behave in front of a judge. Sometimes the issuing cop will be your best friend in court.

[Fred Birnbaum]

I am a National Motorists Association member who owns a 1983 911SC and has successfully fought two tickets on my own (my only two in this car). One was for 90 mph in a 65 zone, the other 85 in a 65. One case was a pace ticket in CA, the other a laser ticket in NH. Time and space don't permit me to review all of the details. I want to make one point: If you are an articulate, confident person who is willing to take the time to fight a ticket, you stand about a 50/50 chance of keeping it off of your record. In some cases, you can do better than an attorney, as they want to plea-bargain and move on. You must be willing to go to court, cross-examine the office, and risk losing. I went toe to toe with a veteran NH State Police Officer and he blinked. I walked away from my ticket for an 85 in 65 with no fine, points, etc (I got a continuation without a finding for 6 months - kept my record clear and the whole thing disappeared).

Call the NMA at 1-800-882-2785, sign up, and fight the good fight.

Fred

[avi8torny]

Originally posted by Richard LeSchander
Sorry guys -- I disagree. I have beaten a lot of tickets in court -- I mean a lot. Sometimes the judge is a hard-a$s, both on defendants and cops. I've seen a cop get reamed by a judge for shuffling papers, trying to find his notes on my case -- and I won when he just said I blew through a right turn on red without first stopping. Yes, in a lot of places going to court is part of the good ole boy/patronage network. Pay a lawyer, who used to work with the prosecutor and probably has beers with the judge. It all depends on where you live. But I've won some when my case was weak -- and I've lost a few when my case was strong. I think I mentioned before here that I once saw the entire courtroom get dismissed when the night court judge wanted to get home in time to watch Nancy Kerrigan skate on tv. Think of how many people could have come to court that night, but just went ahead and paid. ALWAYS fight the ticket. As long as you're polite and professional (dress nicely too), you'll at least get a reduced fine, if not full dismissal. I've seen some really outrageous cases (passing stopped school buses, etc) get tossed because the defendant knew how to behave in front of a judge. Sometimes the issuing cop will be your best friend in court.

I'm thinking you were watching a "Night Court" rerun. If your 'beating a lot of tickets" that probably means your getting more than "a lot" of tickets. You could probably save some time and money if you rethink your driving strategy.

tdowling
87 Targa

[L Sjoberg]

Did the officer write you up at the laser speed? If yes, and depending on Florida law, I would first contact the local Asst. Prosecutor who handles traffic violations and find out what their "policy" is for negotiating down speeding tickets. Most Asst. Prosecutors will have tens of dozens of tickets to deal with a day, and will have some unwritten rule as to how to get rid of them, whether it's knocking the points in half; etc.

If that doesn't work, I would then go ahead and fight the ticket, since you've got nothing to lose but your time. Challenging the accuracy of a laser reading is a dead end, but you might make some headway challenging the officer's identification of your car at night (did he use a spotlight?).

If the officer gave you a "break" on the ticket but wrote down what he clocked you at, I would not fight the ticket in court, as (at least in Michigan) the judge then has the discretion to "up" your ticket to the clocked speed. And remember that traffic court is not exactly Perry Mason, and no judge wants to have his lunchtime fouled up by listening to "creative" arguments over a speeding ticket : )

[MMARSH]

avi8torny is one of the few people I've seen post on this topic who actually knows what they are talking about.

If your fighting a speeding ticket from a guy whose whole job is traffic enforcement, who will probably lose. You wont stump them with questions about laser use or range, ect. If the cop who gives you a ticket just happened to see you doing something illegal and is just a regular patrol guy, you definately stand a better chance with him. he probably doesnt go to traffic court very often and may not go if its his day off.

If you feel you were wronged, fight the ticket, you have nothing to lose.


Richard, I'm not sure the fact that you've beaten so many tickets is a great thing to brag about. Once or twice can happen to anybody, but a lot of tickets suggests to me that you should change your driving habits.


I can't help it, I always get sucked in on these topics


Michael Marshall

[gaijinda]

#1. Never go more than 5 over when the limit is below 55.

#2 Always wait for the Bozo in the Camaro to pass you, then follow him.

#3. Troopers are usually very, very close to their barracks. (Safety first).

#4. Pay attention to the lay of the road and traffic ahead. They hide in obvious places.

#5. Get you speed demons out at DE events.

#6. Drive an classic Porsche, and bring the conversation away from the infraction to the car! (Remember Obiwan-Kenobi in Star Wars when they get stopped in that speedster thing.)

This works for me. 0.0 points in the last 10 years!

[Superman]

Courts across the country have stipulated to Laser guns and it's a sad thing. Their algorythm is different from radar. Radar uses a doppler effect. The signal goes out at one frequency, and if it bounces off an object moving closer, the freqency of the returning signal is higher. The freqency of the returning signal betrays the object's speed.

As I said, Laser is different and I am saddened. The insurance industry bankrolled the last part of laser gun development. With a laser gun, a signal goes out and comes back almost instantly and the gun does not note differences in freqency. The only thing the gun remembers is the distance of the object. It knows the distance between the gun and the reflective object. It knows this because it knows how long it took for the signal to return. It has no ideal of the object's speed.

Then another signal is sent out and returned. A new distance is calculated. The gun knows how long between the two signals, and from this information a speed is assumed. Unfortunately, if the first signal came back from the vehicle's windshield trim and the second comes back from the vehicle's bumper, the false distances are used in the calculation and you get a ticket for going faster than you were going.

Further, if the time between these signals is quick (which it probably is), then the erroneous speed assumed by the gun in the above story (windshield and then bumper) will be very much exagggerated. Unfortunately, courts have accepted this technology and you will not be allowed to argue its inherent inaccuracies. And as an ultimate insult, you will also not be able to get detailed information about the specific algorythm assumptions in these calculations, such as time between signal pulses. Again, the insurance industry paid for this technology and its owners are holding this information as "proprietary," not to be disclosed because of patent infrigment concerns.

As usual, it's all about money. Not your traffic ticket money. Big Money. But we ordinary citizens are the only losers, so who cares, right? I know you will all sleep easier knowing that the breathtaking financial warchests of the insurance industry are well protected.

[Ted Stringer]

Thanks for all the quick responces. I think that I will find out what the asst. dist. atty. policy is on pleading traffic violations and try to plead this down to a no points deal.

The thing that I have to remember is that I probably was speeding and have no witnesses that can say that I wasn't.

[Rick Lee]

Superman's comments are all the more reason to fight tickets. Take away the financial incentives to cities for bogus ticket writing. Regardless of what it costs you, the state or city makes no money from people who fight tickets.

Perhaps I should clarify about my record of beating tickets. A lot of tickets I have beaten were parking tickets -- not all moving violations. I've only ever lost two fights over moving violations -- and ironically, those were the ones where I really felt I had a strong case. I've had computer-generated bogus parking tickets mailed to me from Pittsburgh and Jersey City, both of which I beat. I see so many outrageous and unprosecuted incidents on the road almost daily, that I have little guilt for fighting a speedtrap ticket, when my only offense was going with the flow of traffic (always well above the speed limit) and happening to get caught in the crosshairs. If I'm such a dangerous driver, why have I never had an accident? Must be the quality of my cars.

[ToyCollector]

Hey R22, if you drive your truck like you drove your Porsche last Sunday--oversized tires are the least of your excuses

Mowed down the trees yesterday to start the new playpen. Also went to City hall and raised all Holy #$%^ and got them to re-sod my frontage from the construction they did over the summer. Went to DOT, told them my complaint, then asked them to direct me to City Attorney's office "in case I needed a contact name for my lawyer". The boys were here today making restitution!!!

[plain fan]

Ahh, how about another Star Wars reference, "Always two there are, a master and an apprentice." I can't remember the number of times that 2 cops will work together to get speeders. One may sit at the side of the road, like he's working, then radio ahead to his/her buddy and that cop catches the people. Another favorite is the cop that runs on the interstate below the posted speed limit then radios ahead to the other cop that nabs the speeders. When I see one I always start watching very hard for other cops hiding or running some unmarked car. Saved my rear many a time.