PM Sent

Experts on the four-cam Carrera motor:

RENNWAGEN MOTOR COMPANY

Talk to Bill Doyle.

Or Gerry McCarthy (former? owner of KAM Motorsports)

Richard

Like I said...it seems like an incarnation of Playa

That's a type 912 motor from 1969-71. Will this type 912 motor fit in a pre-1969 SWB 912 or do you need the longer wheelbase 912 from 1969? It looks kind of big.

i believe before the post with the pic of the casting number there was a post with just the casting number without a pic asking the ? does this number mean any thing or does this number mean anything to anyone ........

sound like another look what i have that you don't .......... or as others have said Playa reincarnated

or perhaps VAGEEN pulled this motor for what was in the shed after the farmer shot at him??????????????

It is “kind of big”. It is a type 692 Carrera engine, not a type 616 from a 912.

Any 912 configured type 616 engine will fit in any 912 car. The 912 configured type 616 engine will also fit in any 356, if you change the 3rd-piece of the casting (you can leave it original and mod the tin.) You cannot fit an engine from a 356 (even a type 616) to a 912 car without changing the 3rd-piece of the casting.

Incidentally, a type 912 engine is the 12-cylinder commonly found in a type 917 car. It won’t fit in a 912 car.




Please read my posts above.






It would nice if all the skeptics and other drivel would delete their posts.
I’m sure uber gets the message.
If I were uber, I would run away from this forum.
Unless proven otherwise, I assume everyone who posts a question here is sincere.
That is particularly true with a new member.

If given the opportunity, Bill Doyle, myself and some others can answer uber’s questions.

Others on the forum just might learn something.

Best,
Grady

sub'd

its about a $100,000 piece of junk you have sitting there..

vageen after the farmer shot at him.

As a completely unneeded subplot to this thread, I see that the $127,500 Carrera 4 engine that's for sale has K&N air filters in it. Knowing the debate that swirls around K&N's here, either that guy is plain crazy or that's the most decisive vote for K&N's I've ever seen.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-356-technical-forum/496054-fs-1957-carrera-1500-gs-4-cam-engine.html

Unfortunately my post is enshrined in YOUR post, so sadly I couldn't delete it if I wanted to. Which I don't, since I was responding to Jeff Higgins and not Uber, a person who I have no reason to believe is anything but a sincere person with a priceless Carrera motor and a PM Box full of friendly advice from the pure-hearted altruists who inhabit this noble discussion board...

I would have thought that that type 912 motor would fit better in the SWB 912. More rear overhang. As Professor Simon Peach said to Charlie Croker: "I like 'em big!"

When I first opened this thread, I had no idea what a Carrera 4 cam was. Then I saw a picture of the motor, and I practically shat myself. It just *looks* like something weird, wonderful and wild. Really interesting to do the research and find out what a gem it is.

Too bad it looks like this "Uber-thread" is going to die quick but painful death.

If it was mine it would be locked in a glass cabinet in my lounge room...

Grabbing a bowl of popcorn......

I've got a beer and pretzels ready.... http://forums.pelicanparts.com/support/smileys/wat6.gif

Not buying it, I say it's a troll.


(sound of reclining chair, beercan opening, popcorn popping in the background)

He may be a "troll" but we should give him the benefit of the doubt.

"Uber" Chime in with more photos and information.
There are lots of guys here who want to help but they need more info to do so.

I gave him the benefit of the doubt yesterday.
When I read this thread again today, I don't anymore.
I gave Playa the benefit of the doubt too, for about five minutes.

Time will tell.

I don't care if this thread is fake or not. I think it is cool to see the 4-cam photos and hear what Grady has to say about working on them. Its not costing me anything and if it starts to go somewhere I do not like, I can stop reading. :rolleyes:SmileWavy

Oh, and Jeff, I know what kind of engine you have there. You have Wayne's engine. ;) :D

Sorry I haven't responded. I am working full time to survive in this awful economy. I have now spoken with a 4 cam expert but can't get the engine to him right now. There is a # that I think is the serial # but i'm not sure 90321 hope this brings more information. And I didn't stage the engine with a white sheet, I just wanted a clear picture for research.

Wow! Nice find. Uber, could you please sketch out a few details for the peanut gallery? In general terms. Was it found in a car? A 356? Found in a barn, etc.

uber,

Please email me.

90321
To summarize some of the 692 engines.

692/0; 91001 to 91037, 85x66 = 1492 cc, 1958-59, 356A 1500 GS/GT, (Hirth roller-bearing crankshaft).

692/1; 92001 to 92015, 85x66 = 1492 cc, 1958-59, 356A 1500 GS/GT (Plain-bearing crankshaft).

692/2; 93001 to 83062 and 93100 to 93139, 87.5x66 = 1588 cc, 1958-59, 356A 1600 GS/GT (I think the 931xx series were ’59 models.)

692/3; 95001 to 95114, 87.5x66 = 1588 cc, 1958 356A 1600 GT (light weight race car), 1959 356A 1600 GS/GT (Deluxe street car) and 1960 356B(T5) 1600 GS/GT (Deluxe street car).

692/3A; 96001 to 96050, 87.5x66 = 1588 cc.
There are three version of this, not easily discernable from the engine/type numbers:
1960 356B(T5) 1600 GT (light weight race car), 135 hp @7300 rpm.
and
1960 356B(T5) Abarth Carrera GT, 135 hp @7300 rpm.
and
1961 356B(T5) 1600 GS/GT (Deluxe street car), 115 hp@ 6500 rpm.

The later, 1961 356B(T5) Abarth Carrera GTL (1762#) used a hotter (140 hp@7400 rpm) version of the 692/3A. About 35 were this version were built. These had the external flywheels on the cams.


I don’t think this list includes any engines used in the 718 RSK Spyders or the 718 RS-60/61 Spyders. Almost all used later versions of the roller-crank 547 engines (547/3, 1498 cc, 150 hp; 547/4, 1587 cc, 160 hp; 547/5, 1679 cc, 180 hp and 547/6, 1760 cc, 185 hp@7800 rpm). The last two made use of the MFI from the 718/2 and 787 F1 effort. Great fun.

For contrast, my RS-60 (718-055) with a ’66 2-liter 587/3 had above 210 hp@7200 rpm and 1150# wet. Even more fun.


There were 717 type 547s built, something just above 318 type 692 and about 515 type 587. That is a total of about 1550 4-cylinder, 4-ca, Carrera “Fuhrmann” engines. I suspect there are a couple hundred more from racers, spare parts, etc.

90321

90xxx are typically 547 numbers but the crankcase is clearly 692.

547s are: 547 90001 to 90096 and 547/1 90501 to 90959.

Could this be a series of Hirth crankshaft engines built for a Spyder using a 692 case?

We need more pictures.


Best,
Grady

More photos please

Uber For the love of god man...so many people have asked, and I will ask again describe the circumstances to how you came in possession of this engine

I sure hope this is a real life "Antique Road Show"...but come on man, how many times do people have to ask.

By the way, where are located?

-Jack

Uber - by the way...your "surviving this horrible" economy sure does look it got a $100k easier!

-Jack

My location is Colorado. There is another number on the Engine....692/3A. I don't know if all these numbers are in the proper location on the Engine etc. I guess when I get it looked at by a 4 Cam specialist I will find out a bunch more.

uber,

I live in SE Denver (unincorporated Arapahoe) near I-25 & Yale, East of University of Denver. Where are you?

If it is a 692/3A, does it have the flywheels on the cams?
This is not necessarily definitive as many earlier engines were fitted
with the flywheels when the distributor ‘V-drive’ was added.

Was this raced here in Colorado?
If so, I may have raced on track with it.

I can help with identification and be ‘eyes’ for any experts.
There is no need to let the engine out of your sight.

In fact, shun any offer to buy it.
All you will get now are ‘flippers’ looking to scam you.

Best,
Grady

1600 GT, GS, whatever, it's getting closer. This will have some great history. Serial number is still a off a bit.

Uber, for the love of God man, would you please meet with Grady?! Talk about good karma being in CO - you can 100% trust Grady to help you with this motor's history. Keep us informed.

Is it just me, or does the 692 Carrera motor (especially the fan shroud) look like it was separated at birth from Robby the Robot from "Forbidden Planet" released in 1956?

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1267731113.jpg

Can I just add for the record that Grady is "Porsche Jesus"? When it comes to these cars:

He knows all back to the beginning of time
Is incapable of selfishness
Can raise the dead

At the temple of Porsche, In Grady We Trust.
So should you.

So this must be an Abarth GT because of the cam flywheels front & rear also the distributor drive on the #2 intake cam?

OK boys.
This is the real deal.


Looking over uber’s picture, it seems to have been in a Spyder or other mid-engine configuration.

The clues are:

Exhaust pointing flywheel direction (light green arrow).

Fuel fitting pointing to pulley end (blue arrow).
The other fitting is loose and dangling.

Tachometer drive on pulley end (dark green arrow).

Appears to be Spyder throttle bell-crank (violet arrow). OOPS, Missing, I'll fix.

Oil inlet & outlet point too far on pulley end (brown arrows).
With rear mounted engine, the hoses would interfere with the exhaust.


http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1267735176.jpg


Clearly this is a late adaptation engine.
It has the external camshaft flywheels (red arrow).
There are the carburetor spacers (teal arrow).
Weber 46IDA carburetors (purple arrow).
There is the ‘big’ oil pump (between the brown arrows).

A puzzler is the distributor ‘V-drive’ (yellow arrow)..
I thought all these engines had the spring-loaded drive pin for the
distributors accessible from the outside (should be visible in this image).

This appears to be the 547 version to update from cam-driven distributors.
This may be another mid-engine clue as this drive is shorter in the longitudinal direction.

The breather can (fitting visible above the fan shroud) seems to be mounted on the fan shroud.
If this had been in a 356, the breather box was mounted on the firewall.


Best,
Grady

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1267735239.jpg


Yes, it is a real Colorado plate.
It was on my RS-60.

Mark,

Great observation. You are absolutely correct, that was the Abarth configuration.

I suspect it is this way because a Spyder has a frame member (the one with the VIN) just above the bell-housing.

My 587 engine was very close there and not room for a tach drive.




For reference, the 692 exhaust cam flywheels (2 per cam) were inside the exhaust cam covers. Only the intake cams had external flywheels (1 per cam) and could be located on either end of the cam.

The 587 (Carrera 2) engine has the intake cam flywheels (2 per cam) inside the big rectangular cam covers.

This clearance issue arises because the 1-2 cylinder bank is slightly toward the flywheel compared to the 3-4 cylinders. This is exactly the same as a 911 1-2-3 bank toward the flywheel compared to the 4-5-6 bank, leaving room for the engine oil cooler next to #6.

Best,
Grady

Uber, get in contact with Grady. Look at his feedback and 7000+ posts. Most unselfish and helpful person in this community. He will never take advantage of you or anyone else. Don’t listen to any smart guys “helping” you with any nice deals. We look forward to the story about this engine when you are ready to reveal it!

John

Engine
 

Uber,

Please share the back story on the engine. How did it come into your possession?

Regards,

Dave

wow.



uber, you are SERIOUSLY lucky....

Any other forum (save maybe the early911Sregistry) and you may have missed Grady, been scammed, and thought you were lucky to get $800 - $2,000 out of that old bucket of parts....


Grady, I bet Frank would be interested in checking this out with you !! Maybe he'll write another book...

WOW.... subscribed... for the first time in a long time....:eek:

Some thoughts:
(To give relevance on a 911 forum.)

The 4-cylinder Carrera (Types 547, 692, 587) engines and the 8-cylinder
variants (Types 753 and 771) are important predecessors of our 911 engines.

”How can that be?”, you say.
“These engines have no relation to a 901 and its later versions.”

In fact these 4-cams had a direct influence on the engineering that went into
the progression that became the 901.

The issue was complexity vs. simplicity.

Inside the 692 (and the others) are 18 gears. There are eight bevel-gear
pairs (similar to a transmission ring & pinion) that must be first adjusted
for backlash and contact pattern. Only then can you start adjusting to get
the eight cams individually in time. Some of the timing adjustments require
disturbing the backlash and contact pattern settings.

No one with any sense would build such a complex and expensive engine.
No one would put one in a street car.

Porsche did with the 356 Carreras.



If you look at the precursors to the Type 901 engine; the 1961 Type 745 was
a lot less complex as compared to a 692. It had double internal cams,
12 push-rods and rocker arms and all sorts of ‘stuff’. It actually made it to
the working prototype stage.

Next was the much simpler 1963 Type 821. It is an “almost 901” engine. In
fact, this was the engine used at the introduction of the Type 901 car at the
Frankfort Auto Show in the fall of 1963.

The real 901 engines were barely available for the pre-production 901s in May 1964.

What Porsche learned from the Carrera 4-cam engines is echoed in all of
engineering today “KISS”

“Keep It Simple, Stupid.”



Oh, how easy is an early 911…..


Now, look at the progression of the 901. Not much changed with 901, 911, 930 and 964.
Then we get four cams again, variable cam timing and much more. Did the Porsche
engineers KISS and run?

[soapbox]
Could the ‘kiss and run’ be responsible for the cost of a 911 (997) today?

Could the ‘kiss and run’ be responsible for the possible unreliability of the
Toyota ‘drive-by-wire’?

NASA and the military can get away with incredible complexity with
huge redundancy and outrageous over-maintenance to achieve
useable ‘fly-by-wire’. Is that possible with affordable automobiles?

“Keep It Simple, Stupid.

[/soapbox]

NO RESPONSE NESSARY.
(If you feel this is worth a response,
quote it and start a new thread.)

Best,
Grady