Do Paris-

[BarryJB]

This one's got me baffled so far. My '85 Carrera - I'm leaving a party last night and got the dreaded "click" but no starter spin after repeated attempts. This happened once last week so I suspect the old shoulder-on-the-solenoid-pin annoyance again (I've had the cause of starter woes three times in 13 years) as the battery is brand new, plus rebuilt alternator (Paris-Rhone 90A) two months ago.... so I got an easy 2nd gear push start, and start my 14-mile drive home. I employed hills to start this car maybe 70+ times without issues at least twice a day for a nearly a month one time some years ago when I was a bit strapped.

About 5 miles later, I notice the alternator light is on... so I'm thinking, 1- belt off, 2- alternator fried, some freak push-start consequence (or not?). Then another 5 miles, the headlights are getting dim... instrument lights too... engine starting to stumble... pull off under a security light on a convenient slope in a parking lot, stop engine and check to look at belt - all good and tight. Darn... I roll start again, alternator light still on, battery juice a bit restored after stop, I get more 2 miles but again lights dimming and engine stumbling - momentarily killing headlights, engine stops stumbling, but that's no solution for night driving the remaining three miles of twisty rural road! I pull off & stop, drop to parking lights, engine still running OK at idle, while I prepare to secure & abandon car...

Then the weirdest thing...

...the alternator light went off... engine smooth, instrument lights brightened up, I put the headlights on, all bright & normal... like nothing had happened. Drive rest of way home, going through a wide range of rpm and turning everything electrical on (A/C, heater, blowers, rear window defogger, stereo) to see if I could make light come on again - nope. WTF but =-) at the same time.

Park car in garage, shut it down.

Turn key, starter kicks in, car starts right up, alternator light off, like nothing was ever wrong.

What is this, a good gremlin? So while I still have to pull and sort the starter/solenoid, is it possible there is some sort of active alternator protection (crowbar or something similar, where you have to wait a while for device to kick back on) in the Paris-Rhone regulator? I cannot imagine how the essentially new alternator could have come back from the dead. And surely a loose critical power connection would have shown up with the mickey-mouse "load test" I gave the car... or maybe all the current welded it closed!

And if there is some sort of protection, was it the initial push start that triggered it, or just a coincidence? And like the Great Alternator Debacle of 2006, push/hill starts never caused me any issues before whatever the supposed caveats, as long as you have a good & charged battery for fuel pumping & electronics.

[James Brown]

Sounds like a loose wire, corrosion in a wire, bad ground, or little trolls in the engine compartment. If the alt. is not "pushing" voltage (that turns off the alt. light) then the voltage comes from the battery (till the alt. starts "pushing" more voltage than the battery produces) Goggle Wheatstone bridge rectifier, that might help in understanding how the alt./battery/voltage interface works. but you still have to have good connections and I think there is one loose. You still have the starter problem? Might be a good time to get some electrical contact cleaner and start hitting every connection on the car. (power and grounds).

[80-911SC]

Barry , go and delete the duplicate post that you posted, you are the only one that can delete it , unless the mod's go thru and find it ..... duplicate posts will clog the search function so please drop the other one .........

thank you

[BarryJB]

Originally Posted by James Brown

Sounds like a loose wire, corrosion in a wire, bad ground, or little trolls in the engine compartment.

You still have the starter problem? .

James, I'll be checking things out later today re connections and so on. But it's still pretty mysterious. One of my hats is electronics engineer... but I'm well aware of how bizarrely our older cars can behave at times.

The starter has it's own issues for sure. While it might be the solenoid terminal is loose, it's way more likely the solenoid pin sticking just slightly in the wrong place, as you can hear solenoid click. When a starter goes out, I no longer get mine rebuilt as previously I've gotten them back and they still have this same symptom as before and reson for rebuild, that they would one time or another not kick in, then you juggle the gearshift or walk away for 5 minutes or whatever, (or tap starter with a hammer if circumstances allow) and it's OK again. It was never the supposed volt-drop or overheat issues other have reported - it was always a groove worn in the solenoid pin, which the rebuilders don't typically replace or smooth out, that caused it to hang up. I could always replicate this with the starter on the bench. Just grinding it smooth is an effective if cheesy fix, until the next time.

The car was in the shop for 3-1/2 years for a complete rebuild and this may be the last of the usual not-driven-enough-based electrical gremlins I have to deal with - for a while.

[BarryJB]

Originally Posted by 80-911SC

Barry , go and delete the duplicate post that you posted, you are the only one that can delete it , unless the mod's go thru and find it ..... duplicate posts will clog the search function so please drop the other one .........

thank you

Thanks I just noticed that myself and I will (assuming I can find the way to do it). It seems like whenever I'm logged in and write a reply or in this case start a new thread, when I hit "Preview" I always seem to have to log in again before it will show me the preview, and something odd always seems to have occured after that - in this case it was that the message got posted before I'd finished it. I don't believe I "posted" anything deliberately other than the second, completed thread starter...

It's just a day for gremlins for me, it seems ;¬)

[James Brown]

Think about this: car (any car) running fine, charge lamp out, now cut the alt belt and see what happens? light comes on, battery now supplying system voltage.
Just like a loose or corroded wires in the alt.
I'm sure this won't sit well but, the difference from a engineer and a mechanic is like apples to oranges! The engineer sees how things work and can't believe how anything could be wrong while the mechanic believes everything is wrong and checks everything! Sounds your on the right track and get it out soon and exercise it, works better that way.

[tcar]

If it happens again at night, try driving slowly and carefully on side roads with parking lights only on if you're trying to get the car home. Also, don't keep your foot on the brake any more than you have to (stop lights).

Voltage regulator sticking?

I had this happen several times before my alternator just started putting out a steady 19 or so volts. don't let that happen, it can be expensive.

[BarryJB]

Originally Posted by James Brown

Think about this: car (any car) running fine, charge lamp out, now cut the alt belt and see what happens? light comes on, battery now supplying system voltage.
Just like a loose or corroded wires in the alt.
I'm sure this won't sit well but, the difference from a engineer and a mechanic is like apples to oranges! The engineer sees how things work and can't believe how anything could be wrong while the mechanic believes everything is wrong and checks everything! Sounds your on the right track and get it out soon and exercise it, works better that way.

LOL you are right about some engineers, I remember almost 30 years ago running an offshore project, where these three young electronics engineers were standing around this crucial but dead electronics gizmo (on a survey vessel parked in India) telling me why it couldn't be fixed. It had just arrived with no manuals, drawings, spares, nothing. I had a standard lambast for this sort of thing, to the effect "Look you idiots, don't sit around explaining what you can't do anything and why, just start trying anything & everything you can, whether you know what you're doing or not. Start with that chingus screwed on the back!" Sure enough, with some more good-natured abuse, it was fixed 20 minutes later with a luckily matching part from some unrelated system spares kit. We never did find out what the part did, I for one could have cared less (in this case).

So I agree with you, no offense from me on that. We all know guys that can design stuff but can't fix anything, and vice versa. And some of us can do both, and some of us neither. It's not always immediately obvious which are which... unwise to jump to conclusions & stereotpye in our little community here. For example, I don't automatically consider mechanics to be smug ;¬)

Since I've already found nothing wrong (so far) digging around & tugging, cleaning & jiggling today, more info will help me decide whether to keep on digging around and trying to invoke it, risking busting something else (I hate resoldering broken wires under the car)... or just going with it and see what happens next.

BTW, you'll be able to take further pleasure in the practical incompetence with which you credit engineers in the fact that I have not as yet been able to figure out how to delete either of the two thread starters I posted!

[BarryJB]

Originally Posted by tcar

If it happens again at night, try driving slowly and carefully on side roads with parking lights only on if you're trying to get the car home. Also, don't keep your foot on the brake any more than you have to (stop lights).

Voltage regulator sticking?

I had this happen several times before my alternator just started putting out a steady 19 or so volts. don't let that happen, it can be expensive.

My home's on roads too twisty, narrow & dangerous for that which is why I pulled off where I did before it magically "fixed" itself. But, e.g., in daylight, one can drive quite a long way with no alternator, I did some 25 miles once, if you reduce all possible electrical loads as you suggest.

It's an intregral regulator on the Paris-Rhone, all electronic... part of the mystery. I will still try hitting it though ;-)

Luckily my BEL radar alerts me to under/over voltage conditions, and it's definitely saved me from the overvoltage grief you refer to twice now over the years. In fact it was my first alert to last night's little drama...

[autobonrun]

But I will tell you of two I've personally experienced over my 25+ years ownership that caused my alternator to work intermittently.

The first was easy to find. One of the brushes that contacts the commutator of the alternator was sticking in the holder. Sometimes it would stick up and the light would come on. Other times, the spring behind the brush was strong enough to force it down on the commutator. I guess going over bumps caused the brush to lose contact when it was sticking.

The second I found by accident. What looked like a good solder joint on one of the diodes was not. The solder used must have been old because the diode wire could completely be lifted up. Sometimes it made a good connection, sometimes it didn't. I melted the old solder, sucked it out, and resolderd the diodes and no more problem.

[BarryJB]

Originally Posted by autobonrun

But I will tell you of two I've personally experienced over my 25+ years ownership that caused my alternator to work intermittently.

The first was easy to find. One of the brushes that contacts the commutator of the alternator was sticking in the holder. Sometimes it would stick up and the light would come on. Other times, the spring behind the brush was strong enough to force it down on the commutator. I guess going over bumps caused the brush to lose contact when it was sticking.

The second I found by accident. What looked like a good solder joint on one of the diodes was not. The solder used must have been old because the diode wire could completely be lifted up. Sometimes it made a good connection, sometimes it didn't. I melted the old solder, sucked it out, and resolderd the diodes and no more problem.

My buddy reminded me this afternoon I'd had a low-voltage issue some weeks ago. I pulled alternator out and the rebuilders tested it but it was all OK and provided the rated 90A and passed all tests. These guys have done great and varied work for me for years. So I load-tested my battery and it would fail 1 or 2 times out of 5, so I figured case closed, bad cell, internal short; replaced battery... all was well... until... last... night..

But , ha, you are on to something... the battery issue may have been a red herring...

I've beaten on everything else today... can't find anything broken, or make it so, so I think you are right, it does indeed point now to an intermittent internal issue with the alternator or regulator, in spite of the trusted rebuild & good recent bench test. And your two suggestions certainly fit the symptoms. I'm sure I'd have found or noticed (smell, sparks) any simple external wiring shorts or loose connections today.

I've just fixed the unrelated starter issue (as usual it was hanging up on a step worn in the brass part of the solenoid pin), so I'll just have to remove the darn alternator AGAIN, dismantle it and while I will inspect it carefully, whatever I find or don't I'll redo all the soldered joints, check the brush holders and so on... it isn't like there's that much to these things, it's just a pain to have to remove it & run across town to get it tested... pity it won't stay broke, would make lot easier to be sure...

As you say could be a hundred things... persistence really helps, with breaks for beverage-powered meditation... and maybe some sleep here and there.

Thank you for your relevant suggestions.

[WERK I]

Barry,
You mentioned "plus rebuilt alternator" two months ago. I've seen some really trashy "rebuilt" alternators out there. Where did you get it? I think you've got brushes that are bouncing off the commutator because the shaft was not refurbished properly.

[BarryJB]

Originally Posted by WERK I

Barry,
You mentioned "plus rebuilt alternator" two months ago. I've seen some really trashy "rebuilt" alternators out there. Where did you get it? I think you've got brushes that are bouncing off the commutator because the shaft was not refurbished properly.

You're right about trashy shops. I use a local top-notch specialty shop that has always done outstanding and no-compromise work for me over the years on various vehicles, they use only OEM parts. It was a $300 rebuild, took two weeks (shipped off for rewound rotor). As you know, one can get "new" ones for about that.

But that doesn't mean this one got by them somehow, so I'm tearing into it to look and resolder, check the brush stuff and so on as you and autobonrun suggest.

It's only failed the one time - or perhaps twice - for a very brief period in 2k but it acted like there was a hard switch in the alternator line. It's working fine again right now. Blue-moon intermittent faults - gotta love them! Car was in shop for 3-1/2 years for refurb - electrical gremlins seem inevitable if one doesn't drive them every day - this seems to be the last such issue though (I can dream).

But I note & appreciate 2 votes for brush issues... will post any results.

[BarryJB]

FIXED!

Finally found the culprit. This one has variously masqueraded as battery, alternator and starter issues...

Intermittent connection inside the swaged/soldered factory positive-terminal battery clamp. The connection between clamp and the starter/charging cable (#2-ish sized from battery to starter) finally "stayed" bad during starter tests on jumper cables yesterday... showed almost 10V drop!! Cut the darn thing off, soldered a lug onto the wire and used a marine battery terminal with the original double-ended clamp bolt. Voila! I resoldered/swaged/replaced all the other related terminals & lugs for good measure. Inside the old terminal - cut open to look - mostly black, no burnt smell though - literally a moldy connection.

1. Since alternator charges battery via that cable, explains both alternator light on, and a poor charging situation on one earlier occasion, "resolved" by replacing a suspect battery. In both cases I was essentially driving mostly off the battery... I suspect moving the terminal while replacing the battery may have improved connection some for the period inbetween... hmm, maybe that battery wasn't so bad after all... it was from a Boxster S though, didn't really belong in there ;¬)

2. Explains intermittent starter, even if it did have its own issues. Starter does sound a little spunkier too than I ever remember... maybe this has been the source of very occasional starter hang-ups I've experienced for several years, even after rebuilds & replacements.

3. Since all the front-of-car power (everything apart from the rear fuse box - heater control/defogger/rear wiper) is connected directly to the positive battery clamp via the double-ended clamp bolt, there have never been issues with whatever battery power there was being available to feed everything...

So all is well - until the next gremlin awakes.

Boy am I happy it wasn't the alternator, I was dreading my sixth in/out with that this year! I actually enjoy changing starters by comparison, plus you get to hug your 915.

Thanks to all for ideas & comments...

[Rot 911]

Originally Posted by BarryJB

About 5 miles later, I notice the alternator light is on... so I'm thinking, 1- belt off, 2- alternator fried, some freak push-start consequence (or not?). Then another 5 miles, the headlights are getting dim... instrument lights too... engine starting to stumble... pull off under a security light on a convenient slope in a parking lot, stop engine and check to look at belt - all good and tight.

I can't believe you drove 5 miles knowing you might have had a broken fan belt! Good way to fry an air cooled engine.

[BarryJB]

Originally Posted by Rot 911

I can't believe you drove 5 miles knowing you might have had a broken fan belt! Good way to fry an air cooled engine.

Good point Kurt! But I was watching the temperature gauge... it didn't even move... I've never had a belt go out so I didn't know what exactly to expect re temperature rise, or how quickly, but I figured I would see something odd. Only rarely does mine see the second mark... never got to the first during this adventure. Mill has 318k, no work & still strong - that would have indeed been an undignified end for this plucky lump!

I wonder who has actually done that. Embarrassing AND expensive for sure.

[spoke]

Originally Posted by BarryJB

Since I've already found nothing wrong (so far) digging around & tugging, cleaning & jiggling today, more info will help me decide whether to keep on digging around and trying to invoke it, risking busting something else (I hate resoldering broken wires under the car)... or just going with it and see what happens next.

I just had an issue with the yellow relay in the engine compartment. Car was running good, then the engine would lose power, missing and popping. Once I turned the power off then on and the car ran great.

Finally on one 10 mile run, I lost power 3 times and had to pull over all 3 times. Got it home and started investigating. The only way I found it was to wait until the engine did that stupid thing of barely idling. Once doing that, I started jiggling every connector I could find. I jiggled the yellow relay and the engine died! Cleaned the contacts on that relay, re-installed it, and have been driving it for 1 month so far without a hitch.

Bottom line, wait til it happens again and start looking for some electrical connection which is oxidized, loose, dirty, whatever and moving it affects performance.

Get you schematic out and try to figure out what could cause the alternator to not charge and starter to not turn.

Good Luck

[BarryJB]

Originally Posted by spoke

Bottom line, wait til it happens again and start looking for some electrical connection which is oxidized, loose, dirty, whatever and moving it affects performance.
Good Luck

Nail on head, spoke! See my 1136am post today - it's fixed after I luckily had it fail and stay failed while digging around. I think it may have started creating odd effects some years ago.

I once had an issue with a momentary stumble, or a very occasional stopping when idling, sounds a bit like your your Prime Frustrator. Nothing jiggled seemed help, so I figured I'd try to test all the sensors while driving. I drove around with a multimeter hooked into the wires on all the sensors I could find back there with 3M taps, via long wires taped along the gutter and into the into the cab for like a week until I found the one that blinked coinciding with those fleeting and rare stumbles. It was the O2 sensor itself... good time to upgrade to the 2-wire version...