1986 3.2 handling problem?
 

as i newbie i thought i should get my monies worth and get loads of questions in - so apologies in advance!

i have a left hand drive coupe in the uk.

when i take left hand bends the handling is superb. the car has been lowered, etc. and there is almost no roll.

however when i take right hand bends the drivers side front corner seems to dive and the only way to describe it is that the wheel/tyre feels like it almost wants to "tuck" under.

i have not yet uprated to the turbo tie rods.

any ideas? i intitially thought of worn shock but now i am not so sure.

any advice much appreciated



richard:D

I've had this problem before. Get the car on a hoist and check the rear anti-roll-bar mounts. If replaced then it's possible they
are not aligned and the roll bar is binding and restricting rear suspension movement. There are a few othewr things it could be including incorrect wheel alignment.

but the symptoms are at the front, can the rear affect things like that?

richard:D

Does the car sit level from side to side when looking from the front?
In order, you may have a bad shock or broken torsion bar. If the car has adjustable sways one side could be preloaded.

don

yes it looks fine from the front. and i don't think it has adjustable sway bars - guess i'll have to eliminate the shock for starters.......

thanks

richard:D

It could just be excessive positive camber, not enough negative camber, or too much toe in on the front left. You may want to get the car aligned and weight-balanced if it hasn't been done. Other than that, I would check for the following: blown/worn out damper, broken/weak torsion bar, broken front/rear sway bar mounts, worn out front strut/tower bushing, bent front strut, etc.. Sometimes it's the little things that will get you, so start with the easiest solutions first. For example, check the tire pressures!

-Eric

tyre pressures were way off - rear 19 lbs! put air in and still no joy.

the shocks are boges and tired but not knackered.

however the rear wishbone (?) inner bushing looks shot - its crumbling - i cannot see the outer one - would that cause the symptoms?

anyone experienced any symptoms of knackered bushes? what are they?

much appreciated

richard:D

Just to answer a question, yes, problems at the rear of the car affect the way the front end handles. I'm not saying it would apply in this situation, but it's a well known fact that changing the handling characteristics of one end of the car will have the opposite affect at the other end.

the saga continues:(

i'm about to buy new shocks.

in the meantime i noticed yesterday that it does sit lower on the left front side. i measured it and found 7mm difference.

it must be part of the problem? (coincidence?)

what could this be - worn shock?:confused:

(BTW-no adjust sways)

Worn out shocks won't affect ride height. First jack your car up and pull on the wheels side to side and top to bottom. Make sure your tie rods, ball joints and wheels bearings are in order. Do the same for the rear (mainly looking for wheel bearings here). If everything seems tight push down on weach corner of your car and make sure it returns to normal ride height fairly quickly. If not you have bad shocks. If all of this checks out I would check and reset your ride height and then get an alignment. Email me if you need instructions for setting ride height. This can get tricky if you have to adjust the rear so you may want profesional help, but iot can be done with some patience.

thanks dave

i'm pretty sure the items you mentioned are ok - but the car is getting the uk mot test next week.......

how do i check for broken/worn torsion bar??

i had an alignment done on my 85' a few months ago, although the car handled well it had some of the characteristics you're describing. my front end camber/caster was really off on the front left. this also ate tires up pretty good.
after the front was cornerscaled and aligned it corners with completely different characteristics and is much more predictable (we put everything to factory specs).
also a posibility is abroken belt in a front tire, i've seen simalar things happen on our race cars with damaged tires where it was actually "folding" under the rim.
good luck, hope this info helps.

Worn out gas shocks will affect ride height. All of the other items previously mentioned can cause the symptoms you have described.

thanks as always, i'll see what i come up with
http://www.pelicanparts.com/support/smileys/wat6.gif

If the car was lowered, make sure it has been 'corner balanced' you could have one corner with alot more weight than the others. This would cause the car to react differently between left and right turns....

I had a similar handling issue on my 86. Left turns were fine but every time I approached my favorite right hand sweeper off the freeway to the overpass, my front felt like it would suddenly bite, tuck and plow along with the usual sound effects.

I lived with that scenario for years until I started playing with my tire pressures to see if I could make it more comfortable.

What a surprise to find that lowering my fronts to 24 psi not only increased ride comfort but also took the bite off my right hand sweeper along with eliminating that annoying plow and sound effects.

Tire pressures must have something to do with weight or the lack of it since the front of the 911 is unusually light compared to the average front engined car.

Joe Garcia
86 Carrera
92 Grand Caravan
90 Bonneville
86 Olds 98

well, here we are again.

thought i'd update this thread.

i have added a few items to the car:

22/31 t/bars
new rear trailing arm bushes.
new shocks all round.
turbo tie rods.
drop links.

and i STILL have the problem.

i haven't had an alignment done yet. one shop has suggested the rear alignment is out. well, i know its out now 'cause i took the car apart - but the car feels the same as before.

odd. maybe i have a bent chasis - hope not.

Why not do a VERY basic check...tape measure the right side wheel base ( wheel center-to-center)...and do the same for the left....

Some guys have found some (awful) surprises....like differences of 1/2"-1"...indicating a previous "hit" and car being no longer "square"....

Start with basics....move up from there...report back, we can go further..

Wil

Wil

Thanks, but I have found a reputible place to do it all nice and cheap. I'll see what they find. I hope its not as bad as some have found:(

Maybe I missed it, but did you get the car corner weighted yet?

911's are one of the few cars with fully adjustable suspensions and it is easy to get the corner weights way off.
Places that don't know this will poo poo this or tell you that "as long as the ride height is even the weights will be good" because they are ignorant.

Imagine a 4 legged chair that has 1" cut off the left front and right rear legs. The chair will balance on the remaining two legs and the "rideheight" will still be level.

-Chris

chris,

no, its going for that and alignment soon.

the strange thing is that the problem remained before and after i started the mods.

You need to get your car on an alignment rack operated by someone who knows 911s before you can even begin to analyse any of the questions that you are asking. Otherwise this is just one of those silly Pelican BBS guessing games, like "pin the tail on the donkey......" ;)

With all due respect, of course.

I just don't know how one can guess corner weights or suspension/frame alignment, that's all. :cool:

Rich:

What brand and model tyres are on your 911? I had the same or similar experience at California Speedway a few months ago. On right hand turns, my front left tyre felt as though it suddenlly folded under. It also flet like it may have been something in the suspension. Anyway, I ditched the Michelin Pilot (M???) touring tyres that came on my Carrera and replaced them with some Yokohama AVS ES100's--problem solved! My damn tyres that are fine for a Mercedes E Class Sedan could not handle the cornering forces of the 911.

So...what tyres do you have?

Mike

mike,

interesting. i haven't changed the fronts since i had the car. they are P6000's.

Rich:

P6000's have a pretty solid reputation. The tyres may not be the culprit...

Mike

Dicster, any update on your problem

hi

no, i am expecting to be able to get it in to the garage soon for alignment - waiting for funds!:(

the car has now been aligned although i haven't picked it up yet (i just heard they may have found a problem with the gearbox/ limited slip diff).

the alignment was apparently way off. most noticably the front and rear axles were out of line with each other? this may have caused my problem. i wasn't aware that there was any adjustment for this?

(can't believe how long ago this thread started!!)

I was and am still curious. Got the pelican email and there it was. Keep us updated

it sure has!

its a reputable shop - they setup up alot of 911's for historic rallying etc, with lots of success.

i guess we are using "axle" in a broader sense! he was saying that the wheel base left v right was different. i remember another guy had problems with that recently because his front x-member was installed out of line - but i didnt know there was any adjustment available?

i will enquire next time i speak to the shop.

Pirelli's.......:(

Did they mention "thrust angle"? Does that ring a bell maybe?
-Chris

well, they've been taken out of the equation as the shop recommended changing them before the alignment (to match the rear bridgestones).

thrust angle? no. i should be picking the car up on sat. so will get details then. i opted not to go for the gearbox work.

dickster,
Interesting thread. You were apparently a "newbie" in 2002 when this started... have seen you here a lot since then, and this problem is still under investigation.
If I was to make a guess, I now think that your car has some unibody alignment troubles, like from an accident or such.
Anyway, we are srely all dying to hear the outcome of your latest work in this regard, best of luck!

hi bill,

my fear was the same, but they seem to be happy with the alignment. they have yet to do a thorough road test to confirm the handling is okay. fingers crossed (but i must admit to being sceptical).

the proprietor said originally that he would know pretty quickly whether the tub was bent and he hasn't mentioned it since so i assume it isn't.

I meant Pirelli's....:( :mad:

Yeah, I've never had much luck with Pirelli's either... overrated, IMHO. Great calendar though...;-)

Another interested bystander looking forward to hearing the results - I have read many of your posts over the last 2+ years.

Maybe we can entice you onto a track day with the small (but growing) group of UK 3.2 owners who regularly track their cars.

Good luck,
Richard

Hi Richard,

I live a walking distance from Brands so I have no excuses!

My intention is to do some more track days so who knows - I have only managed one so far! One of the major reasons why I finally took the car for the alignment was for the track, I didnt fancy going back to Brands until it was sorted - being that most of the turns are right handers!

What tracks do you guys go to?

I am moving to Otford next month, so we will practically be neighbours!