Stage8 Locking CV Bolts for ALL 911/912

[ideola]

We've just completed the first round of the 924-944-968 group buy for the newly developed Stage8 locking CV bolts for these cars. During that group buy, we received a number of inquiries from 911 and 928 owners looking for a solution for these cars as well.

To cut a long story short, we poured through every page of the applicable PET files, and discovered that we could address the entire range of 911, 912, 914, 924, 944, 968, and 928 with exactly FIVE different bolt sizes: M8x50, M10x45, M10x50, M10x55 and M10x60.

The first round was such a big hit (110 participants!!!) that Stage8 has agreed to extend the group buy discount -- 25% off MSRP -- from now through 15 April 2010, including all of the new applications. This is a completely new, never-before-available product for our cars, and we have all of the 110 participants from Rennlist, Pelican, 924board, and 44cup to thank for that!

The special group buy ordering can be done here: Ideola's Garage: Stage8 Fasteners for Porsches - Special Group Buy Pricing

If you'd like to learn more about the 911-specific applications, here is the group buy thread on Rennlist: Group Buy (ACTIVE): Stage 8 locking CV bolts, Round 2 - Rennlist Discussion Forums

Specifications
• Bolts Are Aircraft Quality Grade 12.9 – 4130 Alloy Steel
• Retainers are 5052-H32 Polished Aluminum
• Snap Rings & Clips Are Spring Steel

Background & Product Details
For those that missed the first round, here is a repeat of the details. I worked with Stage8 to develop a locking CV bolt kit for the entire range of 924-944-968 cars. It was such a huge hit, that some 911 and 928 rennlisters contacted me about offering these for their cars too. I did quite a bit of research to investigate all of the permutations across these cars, and came up with 4 additional bolt sizes to accommodate the entire range of 911 and 928 cars, which Stage8 is now geared up to produce. This is truly a brand new offering, never before available for our cars!

Depending on model year and options, the 911/912 applications utilize twenty-four, sixteen or twelve M8 or M10 cheesehead bolts to attach the half shafts at the transaxle stub axles and the outer hubs (six bolts per CV joint). As many of you know, the cheese head bolts are a royal PITA to deal with and will strip out if you're not careful. And for track driven cars, there have been multiple reports of the bolts backing out mid-session with catastrophic results. Many guys are safety wiring their bolts, and this was the approach I was planning to take on my UWB project until a 924board member mentioned Stage8 (for a header bolt application).

The Stage8 system utilizes their patented "GrooveLok" bolt, which has a 12-point head and a special groove in the head. Once the fastener is torqued down, any number of clip shapes are available, which lock onto the 12-point bolt head, and are then retained using either an E-clip or snap ring. Here are some photos using the samples they sent to me installed on a late offset 944 CV joint, boot, and outer stub axle:

Sample M8x65 GrooveLok bolt (the standard 911/912 size would be M8x50, M10x45, M10x48, M10x55, or M10x60)


Teardrop and D-Style clips; snap ring and E-style retainers


D-style clips installed, E-style retainer on left, no retainer on the right (I didn't have a snap ring plier handy when I made these photos)


Teardrop retainers installed (again, no snap rings, but they would normally have the snap rings installed)


Questions? Interest? Let me know!

[ljowdy]

I'm very interested in just the Locks. I have a problem with my sandrail as I have sliding axles with 3/4 ton Pick up truck U joints from my 091 VW bus transaxle to my wheel hubs. The bolts are the same as you have only much shorter. The continually need to be re-torqued and I'm getting tired of dealing with the problem Can I purchase a set of locks only?

[ideola]

Originally Posted by ljowdy

I'm very interested in just the Locks. I have a problem with my sandrail as I have sliding axles with 3/4 ton Pick up truck U joints from my 091 VW bus transaxle to my wheel hubs. The bolts are the same as you have only much shorter. The continually need to be re-torqued and I'm getting tired of dealing with the problem Can I purchase a set of locks only?

Yes, at the bottom of the application guide page, I have it set up for guys to purchase spare bolts, spare clips, and spare retainers. You can order those. However, a bolt is a bolt is a bolt...if you can tell me the length of the bolt you need, I can probably get a custom order done for you, and still fit it into the group buy pricing. FWIW, bolts are available in 5mm increments...it's not economical to do odd increment sizes (e.g. technically, the OEM 924 bolts are M8x48, but there's plenty of room in the stub axles to accommodate the add'l 2mm of the M8x50 Stage8 bolts).

[ljowdy]

Thanks for the reply,

OK, I'll try to measure the bolt this afternoon.

[Kroggers]

Hi Ideola, long time no speak. I have not been able to work on the 924 since it is outside under a load of snow But as soon as the snow is gone I will get back to it and will be posting loads of stupid questions on the 924.org forum again

Can I assume that as a group thing I will be disqualified as I am based in Sweden?

I might be interested in a set for both the 924 and the 911...

[ideola]

Originally Posted by Kroggers

Can I assume that as a group thing I will be disqualified as I am based in Sweden?

Absolutely NOT disqualified!!! A good 20% of the original group buy participants were non-US members! The only difference is the shipping cost...unfortunately, paypal doesn't make it easy to set up international shipping tiers, so it would be best for you to send me a PM with your desired order, and I can send you an invoice with proper shipping and the group buy pricing :-)

[adam912]

Having had a halfshaft break loose on me just a few months ago, I immediately appreciated the brilliance of your idea! Luckily in my case, the disconnect happened at low speed as I gunned it to get across an intersection. But lemme tell you guys, that loud BANG is enough to stop your heartbeat. I was very lucky that minimal damage was inflicted. I cannot imagine what this would be like at speed!

I've experienced a lot of strange things in my 37 years of this baby as my daily driver. That sound has to be one of the scariest.

My order is placed.

cheers
Adam912.Out

[Kroggers]

Just out of interest, are these one time use like the factory ones or can the be reused after removal?

[sc_rufctr]

Originally Posted by Kroggers

Just out of interest, are these one time use like the factory ones or can the be reused after removal?

"Bolts Are Aircraft Quality Grade 12.9 – 4130 Alloy Steel"

Being shore hardness of 12.9 means you can reuse these time and time again confidently.
And the locking hardware is reusable...

[Jeff Alton]

Are people actually breaking the inexpensive 10.9 factory spec bolts?

I like the idea of a multiple use fastener and locking kit, but 10.9 fasteners are readily available as are shnoor washers which appear to remedy any issues with the fasteners backing out.....

That said, your prices seem pretty reasonable for a little extra insurance.


Cheers

[ideola]

@Kroggers
Thanks, that's a great question, and I should have included that info in the general background above! As sc_rufctr notes, these bolts are absolutely re-usable, and that is one of the biggest advantages. The thing to remember is that for ALL of the OEM applications, stretch bolts are used, and therefore require new replacements after EACH time the bolts are "de-torqued". On a track car, that is less than practical, even if the cost of OEM bolts is less than $1 each; just the nuisance of having to have a ready supply sitting around. These bolts are NOT stretch bolts, and are therefore re-usable. Even if you're not convinced of the failure risk, the simple convenience of being able to reuse the bolts and not have to mess with safety wire seems compelling enough to make these worthwhile.

@Jeff Alton
YES! People ARE breaking the factory bolts, and here's why. As best I can tell, failures are due to a two primary issues: 1) re-use of OEM bolts (which one could argue constitutes improper installation); and 2) contaminated threads on either the bolts or the stub axles (CV grease is not conducive to maintaining torque). So unless you're working in a "white room" type environment, there is a fair chance that the threads will be contaminated, particularly in a pit environment. Once an OEM bolt loses torque, either from being stretched or from grease contamination, it (and it's neighbors) will inevitably back out. Some will fall out entirely, and some may snap off due to the increased load. I don't see anything in the 928 design that makes it any less susceptible to these failure modes than the other cars.

I have received countless emails and PMs from guys, even on street-driven cars, that have shared anecdotal stories about CV bolts backing out...if one of them loses torque it puts extra stress on its neighbors, and that's what cause them to break. These bolts are a stronger grade, so not only do they not back out, but they are less likely to break as well.

[Kroggers]

I have one last question. I note from the bolt that it has a reverse start pattern. I do not currently today have a tool that will enable me to install these bolts - is the required socket for these included in the kit, or do I have to purchase it?

If I have to purchase the required socket, could you please indicate the pattern name and size?

[ideola]

Actually, it's easier than you might think! It's just a standard 12-point metric socket, so any 12-pt M8 or M10 socket will do. I suspect you probably already have a few of these in your tool box.

I do recommend that you make sure you have a high quality / high precision socket ... some of the el-cheapo sockets don't provide very good head engagement at the mouth of the socket, so a high quality socket would be a good idea.

[Kroggers]

Cool, thank you - did you get my PM?

[ideola]

Yep, typing up a response momentarily :-)

[ideola]

Answers to a few questions that have come in:

Q: Are the bolts re-usable?
A: YES, absolutely. They are made of 12.9 grade steel.

Q: Looks like I need a special tool to install these?
A: NO, all that is required is a standard 12-point 8mm or 10mm socket. It is highly recommended to use a high-quality socket, as some of the el-cheapos don't provide good engagement at the opening of the socket. Standard snap ring pliers are all that's required for the retainers.

Q: I see that Stage8 provides E-style retainers, and those seem easier to install. Can I order them?
A: Stage8 strongly recommends the use of snap rings for moving applications such as CV joints due to the full circle engagement, even though the risk of losing an E-style retainer is very small.

Q: Are the E-style retainers interchangeable with the snap rings?
A: NO, the E-style retainers require a wider groove in the GrooveLok bolt, so the bolts must be machined differently.

Q: I see that Stage8 offers Teardrop style retainers. Can I order them?
A: SORT OF(!). For the group buy, I am limiting the bolt configuration to D-style clips and snap ring retainers to help simplify the ordering, production, and fulfillment process. However, if you really want some teardrop style retainers, at the bottom of the Application Guide page, you may order 6-paks of extra clips in either the D- or Teardrop shape ($3 per pak less 25%)

Q: I'm worried about losing a bolt or retainer set. How do I get more if I lose one?
A: At the bottom of the Application Guide page, you may order 6-paks of extra bolts ($26 less 25% per 6-count), clips ($3 less 25% per 6-count), and retainers ($3 less 25% per 6-count)

[RWebb]

What makes you say the stock items are stretch bolts?

[island911]

Originally Posted by ideola

@Kroggers
.... So unless you're working in a "white room" type environment, there is a fair chance that the threads will be contaminated, particularly in a pit environment. ...

What kind of room do you have to deal with those itty-bitty circlips? --The E-clips might be manageable, but sheesh, those cir-clip...

Oh, and CV's (non-doweled 76-on iirc) should have extra attention to a clean flange/CV mating surface. Fasteners don't come out if the friction of surfaces is properly managed. (Dry interfaces- not just the threads)

[Kroggers]

Originally Posted by RWebb

What makes you say the stock items are stretch bolts?

I must admit that I believed they were stretch bolts, and could only be used once. But I can not remember where I got that information from and why...

[Jeff Alton]

The stock bolts are standard 10.9 as far as I remember. Use a simple shnoor washer and they will NOT back out.

I like the look of the bolts being offered here, but have never ever had a problem with 10.9 bolts and shnoor washers.

Yes, I replace them everytime they are removed, but they are so inexpensive that it is no big deal....

12.9 vs 10.9, if they are not breaking it really does not matter. It is the locking mechanism that is keeping the bolts in, not the fact that they are 12.9. A shnoor washer can provide the same insurance to a 10.9 factory bolt, or one sourced from your local quality metric supply house.

This topic has been discussed at length, I think Island and Randy both posted on those threads.

Cheers