Uh Oh, No front sway bar

[Dave Colangelo]

So I was replacing my spring plate bushings yesterday, and had the car up on cinder blocks. Some thing possessed me to look under the front and check out the front A-Arms and what not. While looking at them I noticed that there was a bushing on the arm with nothing in it. I looked on the other side and found the same thing. At this point I was quite surprised as I at first didn't know what these bushings were for. A quick consult to my manual cleared things up. Here is the issue im having, It looks like the bar was removed, not knocked off or any thing. None of the supports are there and the bushings are in real good shape. Would this be some thing that would be removed for a more comfortable ride? The PO used the car lightly and mostly as a weekend driver so i could see him going this if it made the ride smother.

More importantly, how big of an issue is it if I dont have a sway bar. I know what it does and know that it make the suspension stiffer. I have also read that it can make the handling unpredictable. My daily driver these days in unfortunately a Chrysler Town and Country so my 911 and my 924s both feel like go karts compared to that. Thus I have never noticed a serious issue with the handling but that is most likely because of what I am comparing it to.

Further more, I am going to put a sway bar on as I would like the increase in handling if it is truly that noticeable. Our supplier here offers the stock one, as well as the weltmeister. So far I have been happy with my weltmeister bushings and would purchase from them again. I see that it has to go behind/ around the gas tank, does this require any sort of custom shaping of the tank? Will I have to make any serious modifications for the car to accept the weltmeister/ are they worth it? The stock one would just bolt on at this point and most likely be far simpler.

Regards
Dave

[rattlsnak]

the through body kits are a definte pain to install if youre car didnt come with one. You have to drill the holes in the body, pull the gas tank and weld the tabs on the control arms for starters. The deal is basically this: the welt bar and the OEM bar are both available in 22mm, (86+ 911, so you would want to get that one and the matching bushings) BUT the welt bar (or any through body type) gives you adjustability. That is worth a lot for some people. You have to decide how you use your car and the several hundred $$$$ more it costs would justify the through body type over the stock type.

[Flieger]

If you have the bushings there (in the chassis) then the holes are already drilled so the bar should just slide in provided the bushings have the right sized hole.

Do your A-arms have the little brackets/tabs for mounting the drop links?

An anti-sway bar is used to tune the understeer/oversteer. Adding one to one end, all else being the same, will cause that end to be 'looser'.

If you want less body roll, then upgrade the torsion bars.

I would just go ahead and start doing autocrosses and track days. Improve the driver first, then decide whether you want an anti-sway bar.

[rattlsnak]

Originally Posted by Flieger

If you have the bushings there (in the chassis) then the holes are already drilled so the bar should just slide in provided the bushings have the right sized hole.

I thought he meant the bushings were in the a arms where the bar 'used' to be?

[Dave Colangelo]

For the time being it sounds like the welt bar is out. I just dont have the time for the install now and cant justify that money for some thing I cant utilize. A very smart very skilled Porsche man once told me during a discussion about performance upgrades

"I was once at the track, and my friend a very skilled racer rolled up in his completely stock daily driver 964 and said come on let me take you out and show you how to really drive. I went out with him and he was crushing laps, getting better times than I did in my fancy race spec 911. HE then told me that until you are as good as you can be you will never be able to out drive these cars to the point of needing performance stuff. They were designed to race and thats what they do well, right of the assembly line. He then turned on his AC and drove home"

Ever since I hear that I know that I can never out drive a stock 911, not even come close, so for now it looks like the stock bar will do for what I need.

Regards
Dave

[911pcars]

It's probably important to you and your loved ones to maximize your longevity. Therefore, replace those cinder blocks (hazardous) with official jack stands. Your loved ones will thank you.

S

[Dave Colangelo]

I have jack stands but as I was replacing the spring plate bushings I could not put the stands on the end of the tubes like I usually do. I did not want to put the stands on the bottom of the tub in fear of them punching right though. The blocks held up quite well but I wont be using them again any time soon. I am in the market for a scissor lift and ironically I went to return the jack I had borrowed from my mechanic and he was selling one.

On any note yes I was referencing the bushings in the A-Arms I have some pics ill post soon.

Regards
Dave

[rusnak]

Invest in some well made jack stands before your next project. Edit: I see your concern. Someone please post the safe jack point locations. I'll see if I have it on my external HD.

[rusnak]

Found it. You can place your jackstands where the circles are. Just make a pad out of soft material, and secure it to the top of your jackstand, and there will be no damage.

[Dave Colangelo]

I usually use the 5 inches of tube that stick out of the spring plated to hold the rear ones, and for the front I usually use some corner of the front suspension. The reason I went with the cinder blocks is because they actually seemed more stable. They have way more surface area and I found the car did not rock around as much. I always felt like the jack stands were going to buckle even though i know they wont. The scissor lift will hopefully solve this for me if it happens. For the time being I'm heading back to college tomorrow so projects are on the back burner for now.

I do appreciate every ones concerns its good to know that people still care about people these days.

Regards
Dave

[rusnak]

use 6-ton jackstands. The best advice to give you is to use cinder blocks for your campfire weenie roast or a book case for a college student.

[winders]

Originally Posted by Dave Colangelo

"I was once at the track, and my friend a very skilled racer rolled up in his completely stock daily driver 964 and said come on let me take you out and show you how to really drive. I went out with him and he was crushing laps, getting better times than I did in my fancy race spec 911. HE then told me that until you are as good as you can be you will never be able to out drive these cars to the point of needing performance stuff. They were designed to race and thats what they do well, right of the assembly line. He then turned on his AC and drove home"

Dave,

While that is a nice story, the reality is that the 911 cars that roll(ed) off the assembly line and intended for the general public are full of compromises that make them suitable for the street and the rules that street cars must adhere to.

Yes, they are capable cars right off the assembly line. But that doesn't mean that they cannot be a made a lot better with some relatively simple changes.

Scott

[rusnak]

I'm a step slow tonite, sorry I didn't see that you actually are a college student. No smart azz commrnt meant, just honest safety advice based on firsthand experience, Dave.

[Turbo Dan]

Dave, the sway bars are a very essential piece of the cars overall handling. The fact that you have a rear bar but no front bar already suggests that the car should not be handling as intended. I would personally get the proper front stock bar and see how that feels. The cars are usually quite well balanced from the factory, but of course that is relying on both bars being present. Having the front bar entirely gone will certainly make the front significantly softer, or the rear relatively stiffer if you will. The stock front sway bars, specifically the style that you have, take a bit of muscling to get installed in the mounts. Despite this effort though, it is still easier and less destructive than cutting holes in the inner fender well for the Welt bar.

You should be able to notice a significant difference after installing the front bar. If this transition inspires you to try adjustable bars, then that will be a fun experience as well. Adjustable sway bars (or different rate bars for that matter) can make a car feel like an entirely different animal. Focusing on adjustable sway bars however, there are a few benefits. First of all, changing the stiffness of the front or rear bar will allow under-steer or over-steer to be dialed in or out. With adjustable bars you have the ability to fine tune this balance. One of the greatest flexibilities of adjustable bars is regarding the overall roll stiffness. This broader range of adjustment allows for both bars to be dialed in toward the softer end (Overall lower roll stiffness) but still maintain the balance. Or they could be dialed in toward the stiffer end (Overall higher roll stiffness) but the balance still maintained. When driving a car with both bars in the soft end of the range, the car will have significantly more roll than when the bars are in the stiffer end of the range. When these tests are performed back to back it is very easy to understand the importance of sway bars in tuning a suspension system.

My suggestion, get the stock bar, test your skills at feeling the behavior change of the car, and consider adjustable bars when you are ready to start making tuning adjustments yourself later on.

[Dave Colangelo]

runsnak

I know that you were only trying to warn me. Although Ive been fixing cars my whole life im still learning stuff. I have 3 ton jack stands now and they do work great I was just afraid of them punching through the tub as I have heard stories of it happening and its a lot of force on a small point.


Scott

I know these cars can be altered a lot, the point of that was more that I am no where near the type of driver who would know the difference yet. I have been trying to attend some track days and autox's but unfortunately school has gotten in the way. Summers are filled with internships and summer classes, and I am not with the car during the regular year. All of the driving I do is on back roads. I will admit that over the years I have noticed a difference. Back in highschool I drove a 924s and I can tell that I have gotten quicker around the turns over the years, and now think about what gear to be in and what not.


Any way, I think for the time being Im going to put the stock bar in. It seems like it will make a big difference at least for me. the car is almost all original, with the exception of the RS door panels I made this week so I would like to keep it original if possible. Im not a stickler for that stuff but as a Targa its more of a fun car for me. My dream is to do a long hood to RS conversion, in white with the red side script. That will be my car that receives all the performance mods.

Regards
Dave

[Dublinoh]

I think the attachments for the front sway are under the skid plate, they are on a 87 Carrera. Remove skid plate and I think you will find them at the back where the two hex bolts attach. You might only need a bar.

[Flieger]

For some reason I thought we were dealing with an early car, or at least an early sway bar.

Targas are so flexy you would need a roll cage if you want to start upgrading the suspension. The torsional stiffness (or lack thereof) can mean they do not respond as well as coupes to changes in anti-sway bar.

[javadog]

If you are talking about the '78 targa in you profile, it came with both a front and rear sway bar. I'd check the back for that one, to see if it has gone missing. I wouldn't want to drive a 911 with only a rear bar, or with no bars at all, so I'd make sure they were both installed back on the car. The mounting points are there, used stock bars are neither expensive or hard to find and the stock bushings would be my recommendation for both bars, for you. They are cheap and easily obtained.

JR

[will hung]

I suggest putting the stock 78 SC front sway bar back in it. That way your suspension is the way it's intended to be. As was said earlier, there is a plate that bolts under the car behind the gas tank. The inner swaybar mounts should be under that. If they aren't, you'll need those also. If there isn't a plate there either, it should be there as it protects the fuel pump.

Plus, you'll be able to find a stock, used front swaybar for fairly cheap from the usual places. When you replace it, get new rubber bushings from Elephant racing or our host.

[winders]

Originally Posted by Flieger

Targas are so flexy you would need a roll cage if you want to start upgrading the suspension. The torsional stiffness (or lack thereof) can mean they do not respond as well as coupes to changes in anti-sway bar.

That's not completely true.

I had a '78 911 Targa that was a fantastic autocross car. It had and '85 3.2L engine, 7:31 R&P, 21mm/30mm torsion bars, and big Charlie bar anti-roll bars on it.

This car was faster and handled better than any 911 coupe of similar power to weight it came across.

Some of that might have been the driver....

Scott