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Go forward or not...? 911 SWB
Hello everyone.
I am new around I would like to introduce myself: I live in Madeira Island - Portugal and work as a security manager at local Airport. First of all I would like to congratulate the ones who make this amazing forum being so fantastic and useful. I am connected to Porsche car since 1990 when I bought my first 911 2.4 T which I kept for 11 years. In 2000 I bought my actual Porsche a 993 - 1995 Carrera 4. Being a former rally driver, I always thought to build a classic rally Porsche and I appreciate the SC RS on Rothmans layout... Soon I realized that I would have to go for something like a recreation because budget doesn't allow to restore an original rally car. I recently found on an abandoned workshop, something that I am trying to check if I should go for it or not... That is why I decided to register on this forum, expecting to have the advise of such good experts I found around here. Here is what I found: A short wheel base 911 from 1966, completely dismantled. Car's info: Chassis: 304 435 Engine: 907 670 Can anyone help on identifying what kind it is? The idea is to build a tarmac rally car. Body is on a good shape, painted in primer, although rust is starting to "erupt" from panels. There is no damaged area and all the rust is just superficial. http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1277574324.jpg |
Engine, gearbox are all disassembled as well as the interiors.
Hood compartment, engine bay, rear torque tube, floors are in good shape and the owner told me he has all the parts to assemble the car. Car was changed in therms of shape because it has rear flared arches and impact bumpers - which I would like to change and fit early type ones. Here are some more photos:http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1277574996.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1277575044.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1277575101.jpg Sorry, quality of the photos isn't the best but the palce doesn't have electricity and it is a bit dark inside... |
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Its already been hacked up. Go for it. I made mine a racecar that is still street registered. A previous owner took a 1971 911S and made a steel IROC RS look. Now is fiberglass, roll cage, monaoball suspension... :)
Here is a good site for you: Early 911S Registry Bulletin Board - Powered by vBulletin 119300002 Amazing Find Under G Body - Early 911S Registry Bulletin Board |
Changing back to a long hood style, bumpers and all might be a big task because the front latch panel may have been changed. I'm not familiar with the front latch panel on a SWB, but that's not what a '69 and later looks like. And, sometimes this "upgrade" is due to front end damage.
If not, I'd go for it as well. |
Alex,
Congratulations, welcome to the 1966 owners club. 305001 was the first 1967 model year car. The rust is a problem, that will of course have to go back to bare metal. There is some evidence that prior work has been performed-- the extent of which will determine what's worth saving. The front latch panel is from a later car-- in this thread you can see the panel on my '66 (Nr. 304065), with the "M" shaped impression. Contrast that with yours. These days, a good rust-free SWB is a restoration candidate-- not saying you couldn't use yours as the basis for a rally car, but seam-welding the chassis, building a proper cage, reinforcing the chassis, well, these are all very expensive operations that will destroy the originality of what you have. If it's really all there, consider restoring it with mild upgrades-- search here for tag "901/05" and enjoy the car. Good luck! http://forums.pelicanparts.com/911-engine-rebuilding-forum/410655-one-lap-lime-rock-through-eyes-oxygen-sensor.html |
Alex, welcome. First do a search on rust repair here that will give you an idea what your facing, where to look etc. I doubt all the rust is "superficial", poke and prod around I hope your correct. If price is right and rust not terminal I say go for it sounds like a cool project I always liked rally themed p cars.
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Alex,
Here's a thread from the Early S forum you might enjoy. Old rally photos, Porsche 911 - Early 911S Registry Bulletin Board |
Thank you all for your posts and contributions.
I understand your opinions but i would like to say that I am also a "originality" defender, specially concerning classic cars. I believe all Porsche's deserve to be well cared, always maintaining originality. At the same time, I think we should always keep a balance between this and the real value of the cars, unless there is a big sentimental value that no one other can quantify and we should all respect. |
Here is my dilemma:
If this car should be restores to a original condition? Will it worth considering its present condition? If yes, maybe I should consider my budget limitations and leave it to someone else more capable... unfortunately, being on the situation it is, it will be lost for ever on the same place, letting rust do the rest... Or, on the other hand, facing it as rally car, building its value as a competition car improving its performance, leaving its value as a classic restored car behind. It is important for me to say that I understand and respect all classic Porsche's enthusiasts, their principles and philosophy. But to be one, you have to have the right profile ($$$$) :) Another thing: Even if I consider restoring this car to original condition, there is something that bothers me a lot. I live on a very small place with all its limitations and it is very hard to find the right means to do a decent job this car deserves. For you to have an idea we don't even have a decent sand blaster!! There are only two on the island: a small one, not powerful, that will take ages to clean the hole shell. The other one, an industrial size, will ruin the shell. I had that experience on a Triumph Spitfire Mk3 I tried to restore and the project had to be abandoned because body was partially destroyed on that sand blast.... So you can imagine when I see you discussing about e coated shells and media blast, how frustrated I should be... :) |
After all my considerations and from the experience I got from competition, here is my perspective of what I might be able to do:
(I wouldd appreciate a lot if you let your opinions and suggestions on what is not very clear Body: Keep rear flared arches, change rear and front bumpers for early type(using fiberglass cause I wont be able to purchase original ones!), fiberglass front hood and finally change front cross panel for an early type. Rear boot might have to be changed as well for a fiberglass one. Fit a roll cage (6 point) and seam weld some specific points of the shell (as seen somewhere here on a thread). Its important to say that a shell to be used in rallies across the island doesn't have to be very straightened because all the roads are in tarmac in very good condition. I would fit rear replica engine boot grid, rear quarter Plexiglas R replicas and other small details as lightweight hinges, etc. I would paint it using a modern process because in the island we can find some very good people on this subject. White or silver. |
Suspension:
- competition struts - rally specs, bigger diameter sway bars front and rear - adjustable at rear, font strut bar (that with the brackets attached to shocks towers), harder bushes front and rear. Brakes: - I would have to check at 911's range which ones I should use and fit 15" Fuchs and that really represent an improvement. Opinions welcome! That is something we should care about when rallying on this island - stages are full of ups and downs! Engine: - Here is the subject where purists will "kill me"! :) For the car to be competitive, considering that I Will achieve at the end, around 900-920 kgs, its engine should be around 180-190 bhp (horse power)... Would it be cost effective (and reliable!) to improve the actual engine to this figures? (even considering an improvement of its capacity - like 2.2 liters? Or would it be better to change the engine for a more powerfull and recent unit, OEM specs? |
Gearbox
- At this subject... I am absolutely zero knowledge of what I should do!!! :) Any suggestions? cost effective, please! Interior: - Concerning to that I was thinking to develop a mix of classic and modern "ambiance", like flocked dash (black), retro bucket seats, carbon fiber foot rests (driver and co-driver), classic MOMO steering wheel, no carpets so the floor would have to be perfectly clean - same color of the body, R type door cards, original clocks. |
There seems to be a number of places that do "soda blasting" even in our somewhat rural area. Maybe we can get an expert to chime in here but wouldn't it be fairly simple to modify a sand blasting unit, small or large, to handle baking soda? When I was stationed at RAF Welford UK, we used a big blaster and, IIRC, we switched from sand to walnut shells pretty much without changing anything.
So, you get a hold of the bits to make the industrial blaster soda compatible, and work it out with the owner. Safely strip the car with a fairly cheap and relatively benign media that should be available on the isle. |
Thank you tharbert for your suggestion.
I remember that this industrial machine uses pretty big spherical pieces of metal. Almost 1 mm diameter... I am going to contact this company to check if they are "open" to accept this suggestion and use another product in the blaster... Hope so! |
What island are you on?
I think your plan sounds good. It should be a fun rally car to drive. It will be a lot of work to convert the front bulkhead to the longhood version. There are reproduction fiberglass hoods that look like a proper longhood but use the latch in the short hood position so you could have the early look but keep the chassis metal you have. |
Alex,
You seem to have a good idea what you want: a SWB Long-Hood Rallye Replica (RR) with some modern pieces. Go for it. Not trying to do a ‘perfect-to-original’ restoration keeps the project within the means of mortals. To find the parts to do an ‘original’ today is extremely difficult (and expensive). Now, The BIG Question: Is this shell and collection of pieces worth considering? There are some best left to others. There are some that you can spend US$30K on and could have bought another, mostly finished for US$10K. There are some that are beyond recovery. You don’t know. Find out. Rust is the BIG issue. Prior crash damage and repair makes the rust issue worse. Unless someone has masked the rust (and there will be more than apparent) with excessive paint, you should be able to see it. If not, use a small, portable media blaster to clean suspect areas. There is a portable unit that uses solid carbon dioxide and leaves no solid residue. If you want a suitable platform to build a Rallye Replica, you need a VERY strong chassis – even for tarmac. You want ‘better-than-original’ structure for the front & rear suspension and a good, strong, safe cage tying the two together. (Look at a current GT3 Cup or RSR.) Read the rules. I agree with your choices with body. There are many long-hood examples. Pick the features that match your RR goal. All the pieces are generally available. Buy quality instead of having to re-work every part. You will be faced with a decision when inspecting the rear torsion bar tube. Regardless of the condition, it will need the reinforcements to the tunnel (like ‘73RS and later). If the torsion bar tube is too rusty or damaged, you might consider converting to LWB using a torsion tube from a later 911 (SC & Carrera) salvage. This would allow the LWB aluminum trailing arms. The LWB front suspension and steering will bolt on your chassis. A worthwhile improvement. Any vented brakes from ’69 on will be sufficient for a lightweight RR. You will need to convert to the dual master cylinder reservoirs. The most cost-effective engines are fairly standard 3.0 and 3.2. With carburetors and early fan shroud, etc. these can appear relatively original. I like hot-rod 2.7 (2.8) for lightweight and outrageous performance - but they are expensive. The 901/911/914 transmissions are easy. Find a distressed example cheep and disassemble it. The Forum will have you rebuilding yours in your sleep. Critical is a collection the various gear ratios. Most can be found in the various used standard street types. If you convert to LWB, the type 911 transmission is the best choice. A piece of advice: keep it simple (the ‘kiss’ principal). Just because it is in some catalog or fits the car, doesn’t mean you need it. If something isn’t there, it doesn’t weigh anything, didn’t cost anything and can’t break. Your first mission is a very through Pre-Purchase Inspection (PPI). More pictures please. Best, Grady |
I am in Madeira Island on the middle of Atlantic Ocean - Portugal.
I didn't t know that there were this reproductions to use on short hood basis. That's good news! Can you please inform who might have it? If you know someone in Europe, would be great! Thank you! |
Grady, thank you very much for your useful information!!!
There are some issues I would like to explain: As you might know, here in Europe, old models are getting a very high value. I can tell you I have been searching for something like this and it is not easy... On the other hand, I know that in the States I probably could find something really better but to import it I would have to spend an extra 5 or 6 thousand Euros, including carriage and Taxes. Portuguese laws doesn't help that much importing cars from U.S... I live on a very small place with 250.000 inhabitants and everything that comes from the outside, costs a small fortune. Considering that the owner of this 911 is asking 4000 euros, fully legalized with Portuguese documents already, it doesn't look that bad... at least I think - can be wrong...? At the same time, converting the body to early type and changing the interior to a "naked" rally version, will release many parts that will allow me making some extra money to help on the project. |
Thank you Grady Clay for your useful information:
There are a few issues I would like to explain: As you might know, here in Europe, classic Porsche are getting a very high value. I have been looking for something like this for a while and I tell you it is not easy... I know that in the States I could find something much better for the same price but to that, I would have to add something like 5 or 6 thousands Euro more to pay carriage and taxes. I live on a very small place with 250.000 inhabitants, old Porsches are a rarity and everything that comes from outside costs a small fortune. Portuguese laws don't help very much to import cars from the U.S.... Taking in consideration that the owner is asking 4000 euros, with Portuguese plates, fully legalized, it doesn't look that bad... at least I think... might be wrong... At the same time, it's important to say that, converting it back to early body type with a "naked" rally interior, will release many parts that can be sold, allowing me to make some money that will help the project. |
???
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Grady Clay, thank you very much for your useful information.
I posted something to you but suddenly my answers required approval from moderator and they are still waiting... don't know what happened.. |
Quote:
http://www.jzmachtech.com/images/news/0000330_P_World_Sept_09.pdf |
Thanks Matt!
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Unfortunately, the web sites rs-teknik.com and rs-911.co.uk, disappeared...
Bad luck!! If anyone knows any other supplier in Europe at good prices, please inform. Thank you |
Quote:
And these chaps I've used them very good mouldings(cr*p web site). http://www.porscha.co.uk/ And if you need any help finding supplier(good ones!) in the UK just let me know chris |
Thanks for your help! I'll contact you.
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Alex,
Quote:
Now that some time has passed, please re-define your goal. Writing it down for review may help. I agree that there is ‘real value’ in starting with an already-imported 911. What are the rules & taxes about importing ‘used, junk’ parts? Is there a ‘consolidator’ importer on Madeira who brings containers from the US on a regular basis? If so, perhaps we can organize palettes of necessary ‘used’ parts and consolidate with goodies from Pelican and other. The rear suspension and torsion bar tube from a salvage ’84-’89 would be a good ‘junk’ repair part. http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-911-technical-forum/586225-torque-tube-modification-rally-use.html#post5791448 You can convert to the ’69-’89 front suspension. This works better than the original SWB and there are more choices for components. It appears the engine has some ‘rust distress’. You may find it more satisfactory and less cost to start with another engine. A 3.0/3.2 are available and can be purchased in running condition. I would prefer a 2.4/2.7 converted for 2.7/2.8 high compression, twin plugs and using your Weber carburetors. The rules you choose may determine the choice. The ‘good news’ is you can always change engines easily. Staying smaller than three liters allows you to use the 901/911 transmission. Ideally, start with a good 1971 type 911 magnesium transmission. You can add the large ZF LSD and gear it for your use. There are good fuel cell inserts made for inside standard fuel tanks – but they are expensive. A standard fuel cell in the stock location will work fine. There are good discussions on Pelican about cage design. First, decide on what rules. Current SCCA has the widest acceptance. If you want to ‘improve’ on their requirements, you can submit detailed plans for prior acceptance. Go talk to your ‘killer sand blaster’ technical person. See if they can use other media. Discuss lower air pressure and other to avoid damage. Technique is also critical as heat from too aggressive process can warp panels. You will want to remove as much undercoat and debris as possible by ‘manual’ techniques. There are some good Pelican threads on this subject. ‘Seam welding’ a rusty old chassis is difficult. You will need to split the seams first in order to have clean (no rust) metal to weld. This gives you the opportunity to build the chassis with 40+ years hindsight. In replacing damaged panels, consider using the rear seat tin from ’72 and later. This allows easy installation of a 915 transmission someday. You will want to increase the chassis clearance above the outboard CV joint. You might make provision for it to either be SWB or LWB. I would retain the ability to have heaters, i.e. reinstall heater tubes in the side frames. Don’t be tempted to use the ’69-’71 oil pipes in the rocker panels. The serviceable (replaceable) external oil pipes from ’74-> are best. When working the chassis, make improved provision for the oil plumbing. The SWB was not designed with this in mind (particularly inside the RR wheel). I would compare all the series regulations you might possibly run. That would be the European FIA-like and USA Historics, PCA, SCCA, NASA and more. You don’t want to do something that makes it non-complying in some important series. Start yourself a ‘Personal Workshop Manual and Parts Manual’ http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-911-technical-forum/198381-personal-car-specific-manual.html http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-911-technical-forum/387727-my-porsche-library-do-i-have-everything-fixing-my-1972-a.html You can include images and posts from Pelican and other. Use the exploded diagrams from Porsche Parts Manuals and 911 Workshop Manuals to show your chassis plans. Keep us up to date. Best, Grady |
go for a 2,3 st
go for a 2,3 st!!!!!!!!!!
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Let's wait a few days more...
How!! Your advices are really motivating but... before I get more tempted to start already discussing some aspects... please... let me get this business done! :)
I am working really hard on that but I don't want to cause any disappointment around!:confused:;) |
Grady Clay, I am really interested on discussing most of the aspects on your post. Not because of this specific project but also about others I have on my mind and also already going like the SC 1983 stated on other thread.
I'll keep in touch. (can I PM you?) |
Digging up this old thread...
Any progress to report Alex? You might want to find the kardex for that vehicle. It looks to me that it has the mounts in the engine bay for a sport kit oil catch. andy |
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