Heirloom '69 Targa

whizbang · 08-11-2010, 01:44 PM

Hello all. I'm the proud new owner of a 1969 911E Targa. My dad bought it new in '69 and loved it for many years. He was more of a driver than a mechanic, but he had it serviced regularly and kept up with the maintenance. About 12-15 years ago the fuel pump went bad. Replacing it was a costly prospect, so he parked it in the garage while he thought about what to do with it. He never did make up his mind, and when he passed away a couple years ago, the car came to me.

As the photos show, the body is in excellent shape. I'm adept with tools, especially carpentry ones, but I've never done any real engine work before so I had the car flat bedded to a local restoration shop before attempting to start it. They drained the fuel, replaced the brake lines and replaced the bad electrical pump with a mechanical one.

That was enough to get it going, but on one of the first drives, a series of backfires blew apart one of the paper/foil hoses. I replaced that with one from a local shop and things work okay, at least for the first 10 minutes. After that, the engine loses all power and you have to pull over until it cools down. It also has a slow oil leak, although from the look of my dad's garage floor, its been doing that for years. The hand throttle is also broken at the valve lever and needs replacing. I'm sure the plugs could be replaced also, which looks like something of a trick; those puppies are really tucked away in there!

Anyway, I'd like to learn about the car and engine, but am afraid I'll do something stupid and ruin a fine classic car. I've been reading this forum for a while and it seems like the right place for me. I've also bought the Porsche 911 1964-1969 Owners Workshop Manual and the Porsche 911 1965-1989 Automotive Repair Manual. Can anyone recommend any other basic or model specific reference manuals I should read? Or point me at some links for an engine newbie?

Thanks in advance for your help.

Walter

Cornpanzer · 08-11-2010, 01:53 PM

Wow! Great car.

Youmay want to invest in the 101 projects book by Wayne Dempsey, our host here at Pelican. It will walk you through some of the minor repair jobs.

A new set of plugs is definitely in order along with the rest of the tune-up and a valve adjustment. I am concerned about the fuel pump that was installed on your car. The Mechanical Fuel Injection system (or MFI as you will usually see it referred as) is very sensitive to fuel supply and there are not a whole lot of non OEM choices out there.

Have fun with the car

racer · 08-11-2010, 03:00 PM

Plugs, Points, Distributor should all be examined.

If you didn't replace the MFI fuel pump with a correct one, I would be suspect of this as well.

I would also be concerned about any rubber lines - whether they be fuel lines in the engine compartment or any vacumn lines. 40 year old rubber/cloth is just waiting to become a fire imho.

Dirty Marty · Dirty Marty's Garage

Whizbang,

You are one lucky fellow to have a "E" Targa in virtually original condition. My compliments to you and you late father. There are a number of good Manuals and Books to get and the Porschephiles on this site can give you a number of them if you ask. I have found that this site and the people that follow it are the single best source of information you get if you need to get into the details and repairs of the "E" and if you get stumped on anything just pop a question to the folks on this site.......

They've allowed me to keep my 70 "T"Coupe running all these years.

Enjoy your "E" and the memories it brings

Dirty Marty
Fallbrook, Ca

Macroni · Macroni's Garage

I see a PA tag where are you located? We are developing a strong longhhood community and are always recruiting!

whizbang · 08-12-2010, 07:08 AM

First, thanks for all the replies!

I'll definitely look into the Dempsey book. On the plugs issue, I've seen a couple different types mentioned in the books and on the forum. While BOSCH is the OEM, the NGK BP8ES seemed to get good reviews. What would you fellas recommend?

The replacement fuel pump is certainly questionable. From what little I know, the original electrical mechanical design was only used for a 2-3 years. Is there a reason Porsche went to the straight MFI? I have the original and am thinking of sending it out for a rebuild. Has anyone else here gone that route?

I'll also look at the points, cap and hoses. Good call about the possible fire hazard!!!

Macroni, I'm in NE PA north of Scranton but the baby is currently at my fiancee's place in NJ. My dad was in NJ, and so was the restoration shop where I first took it. I drove it from the shop to give my lady a ride, ran into the hose trouble shortly thereafter and have had it there since. Surprisingly, she does not seem to mind a Porsche sitting in her garage!

boba · 08-12-2010, 08:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by whizbang

The replacement fuel pump is certainly questionable. From what little I know, the original electrical mechanical design was only used for a 2-3 years. Is there a reason Porsche went to the straight MFI? I have the original and am thinking of sending it out for a rebuild. Has anyone else here gone that route?

Whizbang, as a fellow "69 E owner welcome.

You can get your fuel pump rebuilt by Fuel Injection Corporation in Livermore, CA 925-371-6551. They have done a few for me and I have been pleased.

Very nice looking car and very special to have it passed down from your Dad.

This board will have a lot of good info for you, search for the thread with all the MFI links. It will be wealth of info.

Also look on the Early 911 S Registry board as it is dedicated to longhoods.

Enjoy what looks like a wonderful car.

Bob

jpnovak · 08-12-2010, 09:16 AM

Congratulations on your fantastic original early targa.

This page is the one you need to read related to MFI and the fuel system in your E.

Pelican Technical Article: Mechanical Fuel Injection Information MFI

Start with the "Check Measure and Adjust" Document. CMA contains a step wise approach to verification. Make sure to complete in order. It will have you check many things before adjusting the injection system.

Did your shop replace the fuel pump or the mechanical injection pump. There was no mechanical fuel pump on these cars. They should have been an electric fuel pump using a rotary head for fuel delivery. It would be located on the front steering cross member behind the water shield/front cover.

If you are having problems after the system warms up you would likely want to check the thermostat on the MFI pump. This is the mechanical pump located on top of the engine. There is a hose that connects the left side exhaust to the thermostat. Is this the one that was blown off? The thermostat controls the injection enrichment when the engine is cold. It will lean out the engine as it warms up. A lean engine can pop and backfire through the intake and cause these systems. It is simple to remove the thermostat and clean the bimetallic discs. They are often coked with dirt.

You have found the right place to help get you back on the road. The problem with MFI is that there are fewer mechanics that understand the system and its idiosyncrasies. If you are mechanically inclined you may want to learn as much about the system as possible such that you are armed with the right information when a problem occurs. Once properly set the car should run well for many years.

Evans, Marv · 08-12-2010, 09:35 AM

Congrats!! There isn't much I can say in congratulating you that hasn't already been said. We'd all give a right arm to own an original car like that in such fine shape. I do a lot of my fixes & maintenance, but you might just spring for the loot to take it to a good Porsche mechanic to let him do what needs to be done rather than trying to fix problems as the come up.
All the advise already given is great as it always is here, so I really can't add anything. The only thing I would say is that for the hand throttle, there is a plastic slide on the steel line below the throttle lever that is usually old, brittle and disintegrates. It slides along the line between two stops to operate the throttle. It's an easy fix and you can no doubt get the plastic replacement part from our host. You have to remove the carpet and you can probably see what to do from there.
Of course you should get a lot of support here, since it seems like every other guy has a '69 911E.

daepp · daepp's Garage

Just so you're clear, your car as new had two fuel pumps.

- the first one is electric, located below the front of the car near the steering rack, and sends fuel from the tank to the fuel filter console, and then ultimately to:
- the second pump, a very heavy hunk of iron located in the center of the engine at the top. It has six steel lines running from it to each cylinder. There is nothing close to this that you could pick up at an auto parts store. It is mechanical, driven by a belt from the left cam, and extremely robust and extremely complicated.

The first one is the only one you could have gotten a similar replacement for. However, as far as we know there are no replacements "off the shelf" that will actually do the job. For this part many are now rebuilding, replacing with used, etc.

daepp · daepp's Garage

Pump #1 - needs replacing eventually. NLA from most sources.

Pump #2 - generally only rebuilt by pros. Seldom needs work unless messed with or gunked up from years of sitting:

whizbang · 08-12-2010, 12:44 PM

Yes, the shop replaced the electric pump, similiar to the one in DAEpperson's photo. My original looks like this:

.

The replacement makes an audible whine when the ignition is turned on. I suspect I'll go the rebuild route on the original.

Marv Evans, you are right that it was the plastic slide on the hand throttle that broke apart. I have a replacement on order with Pelican.

About the hoses that jpnovak refered too, the left side one that looks like it goes into the mechanical pump did blow off at the lower end (heat exchanger?) but I was able to reattach it. Would that be a pre-heater hose? The parts diagram shows an inner and outer hose. How does that work?

The hose that blew up completely was the one that runs from the air filter housing to the heat exchanger on the right side of the engine. Would that be the air filter hose?

Thanks again for all your help

CCM911 · 08-12-2010, 12:51 PM

There is(or was) a pretty good Porsche guy in Hopbottom by the name of Bob...I can't recall the last name, I will make some calls and get it for you. I grew up in Dallas and went to King's, so I got to know a bunch of decent Porsche techs. Jon Valentine in Dallas also is highly recommended.

Now get that really nice Porsche up and running so you can enjoy those awesome mountain roads.

Cornpanzer · 08-12-2010, 01:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by whizbang

About the hoses that jpnovak refered too, the left side one that looks like it goes into the mechanical pump did blow off at the lower end (heat exchanger?) but I was able to reattach it. Would that be a pre-heater hose? The parts diagram shows an inner and outer hose. How does that work?

This is the hose that pipes heat from the exhaust to the bi-metal disks in the thermostat system of your injection pump. As these discs start heating up, they distort which causes a small rod to actuate a lever leaning out the system.

If that hose is off, the pump never sees heat and never leans out when the engine warms up. Hooking it back up should really help warm drivability