Backdating? (To do so or not to do so)
 

I know that backdating has been questioned, performed, and displayed to no end. I have spent countless hours reviewing and searching the PP threads for photos and information. Nonetheless, I am undecided as to the fate of my SC. Here are the facts....


1.) I know that backdating is not a money making proposition.
2.) I have always loved the classic lines longhood 911s.
3.) My wife would KILL me if I ever sold the SC, even for another Porsche.
4.) My SC is mostly original and in very good condition (i.e. - purist guilt).
5.) I am not willing to put "insane" money into backdating the car (i.e. - $7-$10k...I'd rather spend another 20k on top of that to add another cool car to the "stable").

So here are my questions...

1.) Those of you who have been brave and taken the plunge, do you regret it ever?
2.) Do you think that my color would look cheap as a backdate?
3.) Should I kill the originality of my car or just buy a shell and build my "perfect Porsche" from the ground up?
4.) Am I just annoying everyone with another backdate post that actually is not a backdate in process

Here is a picture to assist...

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/image...61286/9343.jpg

All the best!

Sounds like you have already answered the question:

2.) I have always loved the classic lines longhood 911s.

Go for it.


5.) I am not willing to put "insane" money into backdating the car (i.e. - $7-$10k...I'd rather spend another 20k on top of that to add another cool car to the "stable").

Purchasing $20k long hood will cost you another $20k to make it right. Ask me, I know.

If you can do the work yourself, I say go for it. You don't have to do it all at once.

What is the backdate you want?

M1Frank - Owiee on the $40k. You have a pic?

Check this link..
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-911-technical-forum/421749-carrera-backdate-tre.html

Let me be the 4th one here to nudge you in the backdating direction. :)

Well, your expectations are reasonable. Do you think you'll keep the car long enough for SCs to perform an amazing turnaround in value and become collectibles that should not have been backdated ? How much is your car worth now ?

a few points on the above:
- you can undo everything you do with the backdate. Some if it may be silly to, $ for $, but you *could*.
- How rare is your car exactly ? Super low miles ? First one made, last one made ? If not it's not very rare.
- You can do it under $10K, absolutely ! It helps if you (or a friend) can weld and paint.

Now to answer your questions :
1.) Those of you who have been brave and taken the plunge, do you regret it ever?

Not once. My car needed paint. It was kinda bland. i found the bumpers to be incredibly heavy and that helped put my car on a diet. I think my car looks terrific now, while before it was just a beater SC.

2.) Do you think that my color would look cheap as a backdate?

I honestly can't tell what your color is from this photo !

3.) Should I kill the originality of my car or just buy a shell and build my "perfect Porsche" from the ground up?

If $$$ is an issue, no way you can rebuild a shell from the ground up for cheap. If you have that kind of money, buy a long hood to begin with.

4.) Am I just annoying everyone with another backdate post that actually is not a backdate in process

Not me ;-)

At the end of the day, even though backdates have been done a lot, it's a personal choice, a fun project, a nice weight saving, and in the case of a cheap SC it probably does not kill the resale too much. Now on a peach of an SC with low miles, concours winner, I would not do it. Once thing I should point out is that despite the weight loss, a backdated SC does not FEEL like a long hood, it just looks like one. I've had both... There's something about the SC that makes the steering feel heavier, and the car more solid... it's not quite the same, the oldies feel lighter at the wheel and not quite as "bank-vaulty" ! ;-) It's cool, but not the same...

I'd post a picture now but people are gonna get tired of seeing my car ;-)

I´ve looked at the threads of the guys who have done it with admiration for their skill and workmanship. At the same time I look at the production stats for the older cars and realize that their numbers are significantly limited compared to todays production runs. People seem to spend large amounts of time backdating or predating cars to obtain something they can´t normally get their hands on. When I then talk to owners at shows or whatever and they have clones or replicas they are proud but I notice still in conversation a hint of "well its not actually an original". My only question is that if I take for example an 81 SC and back date it does no one actually think that possible in 15 years people will be lamenting the lack of good available SC`s around and those that maybe have backdate their cars will be regretting that process 15 years later. Are we destroying history and creating a false one?

I think backdating is not very important in weight savings. Removing the original bumpers for fiberglass is enough. yes i do like our short hood looks.

Well that is always possible, of course... then again there is a boatload of nice SCs and Carreras out there, all galvanized and therefore likely to remain "OK" in great numbers longer than the long hoods did !

Maybe in 15y there'll be a trend to put the backdated cars "right", like these days people restore modernized longhoods to their former glory... Or we'll all be driving electric cars with a very small gas allocation to run our classics...

My only point is my car was a $9000 car. I did not destroy the Mona Lisa !

My only point is my car was a $9000 car. I did not destroy the Mona Lisa ![/QUOTE]

Hmmmm ;)



http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1282853542.jpg

It's an intersting dilemma. I'm glad we can have civil conversation about this without undue emotion. Think about the go-go 80's.... Miami Vice.... and the trend toward the slopenose or "flat-hood" look of the racing 935's. At the time, it was considered OK to do.. and some cars were "all white". I'lll bet with the passage of time, this doesn't appeal so much anymore today.

That said, "classic" 911 production peaked in the mid to late 80's..with 50,000-60,000 cars/yr produced, if I recall correctly, under the Peter Schutz regime. Prior 911 production was like 65/day making then about 25,000-35,000/yr. So....there were plenty of good mid 80's to do this with and still have a goodly number available as "original"..as a counter argument. In the end, I believe cars left unmolested for a long time period will be especially appreciated. Look at the 1955 Speedster done correctly today, and compare that with the California look it once had when it wasn't so dear in the early 70's...nerf bars and wide fender flairs and big tires. yeah...maybe cool at the time...but people will be gravitating toward original Speedsters now.

I think that car would look great with a long hood.

everyone knows your an evil longhood guy, Jack. :D

I agree with Wil - it is a difficult dilemma. I've also thought about this often - I have a nice '87, with 171K miles. Problem is, it looks great already, and is a gas to drive. I think one of the hardest parts about undertaking the project is that you won't be able to drive it while you complete the backdate! I think I'll just keep watering the money tree out in the back yard and hope it produces enough for me to buy a long-hood 911T someday.

Good luck with your decision-making process.

Personally I love the look of the short-hood impact bumper cars. I like the look of the early long-hoods cars too, but not necessarily more than a short-hood. I think your SC looks fantastic as it is - if it was me maybe I'd change the whale tail spolier for a duck tail (look great with short-hoods, IMO) but that's about all.

I think if you really prefer the look of long-hoods then that might be good enough reason to backdate. But remember sometimes its easy to find yourself wanting what you haven't got just because you haven't got it! The other thing is quite often backdates just don't look right. I mean I've seen some absolutely fantastic ones on this board, but some just look a little shoddy and not quite right in my opinion. How good a backdate looks probably correlates with how much money is sunk into it, so its my guess that a good backdate is a costly one. A well done backdate does look ace though!

That 911SC is a great-looking car. I wouldn't touch it. A proper back-date will wind up costing a lot more money than you seem to think, but will always be a fake.

I wouldn't. A high quality backdate is an expensive proposition and IMO a very poor value proposition. If you want a long hood I would add to the stable.

Leave it!
 

Nice car!

My $0.02 , The best looking 911 production run was between 1978 and 1983. The cars of course were crazy popular for "my age group" I guess. That being said it is just a car anything you do to it now can be undone later if you ever want to!

Have fun!

My car is a backdate and it's no fake. It's a real car. ;) In this era, with hot rods and all, no one — no one that I've met anyway — really gives a rats ass that my car is "fake." Only that it's cool, fun to look at and even more fun to drive. And everyone whose seen it, loves it. And with all due respect Nine17, don't you drive a CS clone? I can't imagine you calling that a fake. SCs are great. Really great. I love 'em. But they're everywhere. You can create a unique car with a backdate and no one will have another like it.

It's a personal choice... not for everyone, and yes, it costs a bundle to do right. But, you will have the best of both worlds. Depending on what parts you add to it, and the job done, could end up being worth more than the original car.

Just my 3 cents which is only really worth around 1 cent. If that.

I love the longhood-look.......

however regarding your car, I would add a ducktail and hang the stock tail/decklid on the garage wall as art.

Then, I'd add a prototipo steering wheel to the mix to complete the vintage feel.....of course, hanging the stock wheel next to the tail-art on the wall.

That way if you want to reverse things back to stock it is an easy task. :D

1.) Those of you who have been brave and taken the plunge, do you regret it ever?

Once in a while I do. 99% of the time, no. I'd do it again.

2.) Do you think that my color would look cheap as a backdate?

I like backdates that look period-correct.

3.) Should I kill the originality of my car or just buy a shell and build my "perfect Porsche" from the ground up?

SC's and Carreras are too numerous to be worried about killing originality. You only live once and you're not getting any younger. These cars are about as valuable as a used minivan.

4.) Am I just annoying everyone with another backdate post that actually is not a backdate in process

Not at all...there's never a shortage of opinions here.

Leave it alone! Ditch the chrome wheels though. Maybe a nice contrast color can help you feel backdated without actually doing it. Oh yeah, ditch the heavy turbo tail for a duck.

Keep it a SH.. since someday even shorthoods will be rare and those folks who backdated will have a car no one really wants. You don't see folks clamoring for "updated LH".. and I think the same will happen for those who backdated.

Let me weigh in on the 'don't backdate' side of the debate.

It's your car, of course, and longhoods are beautiful. But so are the SCs. I can understand backdating a rough shorthood, but if your car is in good original condition then you should treasure it as the classic it is.

As threads sometimes go, complex questions and complex answers. How much of a tinkerer are you? That plays into the equation as well, IMHO. I have a long hood that's been forward dated, as others have done. I'll probably continue to make other "improvements" as time goes on; it's just something I enjoy, not for everyone. The car was a little rough in places, but I got into at a reasonable price.

Here's another factor - For me, a Porsche that does not need something is kind of boring to own. I had a 964 that, at the time was one of the nicest cars I had owned, and I sold it because there was nothing to fix. An example of too nice to butcher up with mods. Later I repeated that with a 996, I did some track mods (suspension), drove it a good bit, track and street, nothing to fix. Put the stock suspension back and sold it.

So the joy in working on the car is just another angle to think about. How much are you into doing the back date work? It can be really expensive to pay someone else to do it, and you're not likely to recoup any of your expenses.

Just another input for you.

I have an 83 SC and when I bought it I had the intention of backdating it someday, I'm not saying it's out of the question but now its less likely. I've done some things to it to make it look a little more "vintage" such as painting the wheels to look "RSRish", duck tail, removed rockers and plan on some RS style seats at some point because there are a lot of things I like about the older cars VS that 80's look.
I had a replica of a 58 Carrera Speedster. When I bought it it was trashed and I spent a lot of time, and some money, completely "restoring" the car. Because it was a mish mash of various years of VW parts and replica makers it was a nightmare to sort out as I built it. And when it was done it was gorgeous!! (I have pics if you want to see it :) ) However in the end it wasn't a real speedster and I really didn't care about that part, what bothered me was explaining to people that it wasn't real. Yes, I know, afficiandos can tell in a second, but the car got sooo much attention everywhere it went. When I'd go to the store I found myself waiting until people walked away from it before I'd walk to it just to avoid the "What do you mean it's not real?" conversation. Now with my SC when someone asks "What year is it?" I can say it's an 83 SC and not have to go any further and to me there is a confort in that. I just couldn't deal with having to explain what "backdating" is.

back date it !!

if you where a concerned kinda guy you could keep all your old parts and update it again in the future. if your careful you can back date without destroying the originality of you car. but that all depends on how in depth you want to go, the rear panel is the only sketchy area with major cutting and grinding. but it is reversible.

enjoy your car anyway you like "BACK DATE":D

cheers ed

Yet another opinion for what it's worth..............

If the car is rough or damaged then by all means go for it. BUT if your car is as nice as it looks in the picture I would think long and hard about changing it.

There is a special quality that these cars have that comes from the quality of their build. The way the doors close, the alignment of the body panels, finish of the original paint, etc.

Once you remove a body part and replace it with another one, metal or fiberglass, it will never feel or look quite the way it did when it came from the factory.

My car is not rare or perfect but It did give me pause when I disturbed its originality for the sake of modification.

It's your car so do whatever makes YOU happy. But know going into this project that the car will never be the same.

If I may add another element to the arguement. As already said I love what the backdating boys have done with their cars. They are one talented bunch. I´ve an 87 Model and I love it. Its got its original paint and a few weeks ago my 7 year old said to me"Daddy when you die can I have your car". I laughed but the reality is I love the car and see myself only as a caretaker and not owner. I think many of us think in terms of our lifetime and not the future. I look at cars from the 30´s and 40´s and think man wouldn´t it be great if my car was at a show giving someone as much fun as I get from seeing an early car. As Wil mentions in the 80´s production of Porsche models reached 60k a year. We think today that there are enough good SC´s around but how many Model T´s do we still see around with daily production having reached 6000 a day a times. I´m not knocking the backdaters as I really love their work but I feel like a Guardian of my car for future generations.
Maybe its time Porsche opened a division reproducing some of the older models :)

Hmmmm ;)



http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1282853542.jpg[/QUOTE]

Good one ! OK then, let's judge on pictures then:

Just before (use your imagination to add the hood and headlights)

http://members.rennlist.com/greg/bkd_IMG_5803.jpg

After:

http://www.erikaslist.com/pictures/bkd_IMG_6720.jpg

Note that I too would not do it to a "perfect" SC, but how many perfect SCs are out there?... I don't think I hurt the value of my car any. Plus, I learned a lot, saved a few hundred pounds of weight, made the car more interesting again (to me anyway). And my car was a budget backdate, nowhere near the talent or anal-retentive level found on this board. Your call... I do agree it sucks not having your car for a few months but it was a ton of fun...

Alternative? Find yourself a nice 65-69 912 for around 10K. You get the look, you get 2 cars. The flaw with that cunning plan is that now you got 2 Porsches sucking at your teet for repairs and maintenance ! ;-)

Thanks for appreciating the Mona Lisa humour.I like your Car and I know what you mean. The thing about yours is that its all realitively easily reversible. If I were to buy your car I´d be looking to know if you still had the original bumper/Fuchs and flag mirrors. As for the 912 I think they are an underestimated Classic. Porsche were worried about the price hike on the 911 putting customers off so they put the 356 engine into the 911 and had a car to bridge the gap. I´ve driven a 912...great fun. Hell I love them all.

Funny..... Mikesride says, " My $0.02 , The best looking 911 production run was between 1978 and 1983...."

....and why not therefore include 1984-89? What visual clues are different (aside from the "Carrera" badge in lieu of the SC badge on the tail?) OK....the front valence lights...but you think the SC fogs look better than Carrera ?

?????

Start with a duck tail and a steering wheel. Keep your original parts on the garage wall.

You will soon learn if you have the taste for this kind of project.

You know, I was blown away when Stormaster did his RSR update, but the results overawe the loss of his car as pristine. However, if you undertake such a task, be aware that you must be committed to spending whatever time, money and effort it takes to finish the project to 100%.

I have restored or built numerous cars. The guys who take on these projects are enthusiastic, committed, energetic and totally turned on by the process. But you either have the experience and confidence, or you write a check.

If you are not 1000% sure that this is the greatest thing you could possibly do to your car, you should not do it.

Build the car you want. In the end, it's the only thing that matters.

I started my lifelong Porsche addiction with a 66 911, that I bought in 67. I've been the "caretaker" of 15 different Porsches through the years since. When I sold my 993 C4S last year I really wanted another early car, but all I found was expensive "serial numbers" and cars that I wouldn't want to drive like I want to drive. I found an 87 that was BD'd by a fellow Pelican that I felt was exactly what I wanted. He had done the hard work, all that was left was the interior, and I just completed it. I've got way more in receipts than what I paid for it. It's what I wanted. AND....if anyone thinks it's a fake, I don't give a ....

before
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1282921334.jpg
and after

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1282921377.jpg


ps... I had a real 55 Speedster, and I got tired of explaining to people that it WASN"T a fake!

hubba hubba hubba. :)

Here are some more details on my particular situation....

The car has about 141k miles (20k on rebuilt motor and transmission by previous owner)

I actually already got rid of the whale tail...

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/image...1286/17601.jpg

Unfortunately, I forgot that I had this updated picture. The color looks really dark (almost black) but it really appears more of a dark charcoal color.

I can definitely see the validity of all the points of view presented thus far. As far as working on my car...I really enjoy it as I view these cars as a pleasure to turn wrenches on. Being said...I usually can only tackle smaller projects as I don't have the best garage for larger ones. If I took on this project I would most likely do some of the body disassembly myself and then have a body shop do the fabrication and installation of the backdate components. The reason I first started kicking this idea around is that though my car is 99% rust free there is a small area where the previous owner had a new windshield installed and must have damaged the body somehow as there is an extremely small (about the size of a macaroni noodle) area where paint is bubbling at the bottom of the passenger side windshield. The paint overall is in very good condition for a 30 year old vehicle but I start going down this line of thought...

To fix the area the windshield will need to be removed and the rust repaired and that area painted.

If that area is going to be painted I might as well paint the whole car.

If I am going to paint the whole car... wouldn't this be the perfect time to do a backdate?

As to overall condition of the car.... It is in good condition, looks great, and is mechanically sound but it is not a show car by any means. I enjoy the car as an occasional weekend driver and it puts a smile on my face every time.

If I backdate...this is what I would be shooting for (I apologize to whomever this picture belows to for not listing them as I found the image on google).

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/image...1286/17603.jpg

Except leaving the existing Fuchs of course :)

I think the answer is evident. Keep us posted on the progress. :D

Even though I have a long hood, I wouldn't recommend you back date your car. If it was a wreck or some one had done some poor repairs or...
But to take a nice original and back date it, just doesn't seem right.

What I would do is go for the IROC look. It's a classic look. Functional. You'll save weight, look awsome, and in a pinch you could put it back to stock if you wanted.

Backdates look better with the chrome trim in my humble opinion.