Wanna buy a 2004 996 - is it a mistake??

[larry47us]

OK, I've read all about the RMS, IMS and D-Chunk issues. I found a 2004 996 Targa with a 6 spd manual and 24K miles on it for $31,900. I am scheduling a PPI for Monday with an independent shop highly recommended by "brads911sc" another Pelicanhead.

Did Porsche get most of it's issues resolved by the time they produced the 2004's? Are most 996's prone to engine failures, especially low mileage ones? This one looks pristine, and I can't wait to drive it. (It's in Houston, I'm in Chicago). It seems that there is no way of telling if there's a potential problem in the engine, so you're buying a pig in a poke from that perspective. Will ALL of these engines fail by the time they hit 100K miles? That would be sad if it were true.

It looks like there is little that can be done to prevent such a failure. I am not planning on tracking this car - just enjoying driving it. Wayne says that changing the oil every 3K - 5K will help forestall the problem, but doesn't look like there is anything that will PREVENT it!!

Looking for sage advice from those who have 996's or are working on them. I appreciate everyone's comments, but I have done some research on this issue on this BBS, and have read much of the chatter.

TIA

Larry

[Justin@Athens]

Have the indy to a leakdown and compression test-- both of which are not part of a standard PPI. Also ask for an ECU dump and the computer will tell you alot about how she has been driven. I cannot testify about RMS/IMS failures in 2004 models. However, the 996 engine is not known for its durability. The fact that this car has low miles is not indicative of anything--some of these engines have blown up at 30k miles.

[jackb911]

If I were you I'd go to that "other" Porsche forum that starts with an "R" and talk to the 996 guys. The water pumpers don't get much love over here and that is putting it mildly.

I had a 2000 996 and didn't care for it at all, but I am an old school Porsche guy (see my sig). The 996 I had just didn't feel "Porsche" enough for me, but it was a very fast, smooth, quiet, nice handling car. I didn't own it long enough to comment on its reliability. I do think the RMS, IMS and other issues that haunt these cars have been blown out of proportion although a certain percentage of these cars have been affected and there seems to be no rhyme or reason why some cars are affected and others are dead reliable. It's a crapshoot.

I'm not aware of any significant engine reliability upgrades on the M96 engine during it's lifespan, and that includes the pre-direct injection 997's. The latest 997's have a new crankcase design that supposedly addressed the RMS/IMS problems that plagued these cars for 10 years. The fact that Porsche arrogantly ignored this design problem has led me to the decision that I will NEVER buy a new Porsche again.

If you are seeking a Grand Touring Porsche as opposed to a "sports car", the later 996's are nice cars that have great air conditioning and other creature comforts that the air cooled cars lack. It's an entirely different driving experience that some love, others loathe. But as I said, buying one is a crapshoot.

[Wayne 962]

The 996s are great cars, and they made a lot of them. The engines can be very reliable, or they can grenade at times too. Frequent oil changes seem to help considerably. Check out this article I wrote on the reliability issues: Pelican Technical Article: Common Boxster Engine Problems and Failures - 986 / 987

-Wayne

[450knotOffice]

I own a 2000 996. That car has been my daily driver since the day I bought it in mid '06. It currently has 110,000+ miles on it, of which 73,000 miles have been with me. It's also been used about six times on the very high speed Willow Springs raceway, beaten to within an inch of its life every time, and has been autocrossed as well. Other than a voltage regulator that failed about four years ago, it has been absolutely reliable.

The biggest potential issue with these cars is the possible failure of the IMS bearing. However, Flat Six Innovations has a redesigned bearing that is much more robust and which addresses the core problem of the bearing. It's an easy retrofit during a clutch change and essentially eliminates the potential of an IMS bearing failure. One of the recommendations for IMS bearing health is to change the engine oil frequently, maybe every three to five thousand miles (which is what I've always done, btw), which the experts feel seems to help keep the bearings healthy. The D-chunking issue seems to have been addressed by Porsche as well, and doesn't seem to be a common issue anymore.

The engines themselves, assuming the IMS bearing has been replaced, and the optional deep sump, baffled oil pan has been installed, are said to be quite robust and survive track work in the spec 996 and Boxster series quite well. As I said earlier, I've beaten the heck out of my bone stock 996 (with a stock and original IMS bearing and normal oil pan) out on the very high speed Willow Springs track and the car has never shown any issues whatsoever.

As far as handling is concerned, in bone stock US spec form, it's very good and forgiving, but could certainly be tightened up a bit. Fortunately, there are plenty of options out there. One is the R.O.W. M030 sport suspension setup, complete with struts, springs, and roll bars. It completely changes the handling character of the car and gives it a much better, lower stance. Taking it a bit further, you can opt for the X74 suspension, which gives the car near-GT3 handling and stance - although it might be a bit harsh for most. For about the same money, you can also opt to go with a fully adjustable Bilstein PSS10 suspension setup. For more camber adjustment, you can go with GT-3 lower control arms.



I would recommend visiting the very active 996 forum at Rennlist.com. There are quite a few guys there who have well over 100k miles on their 996's.

[larry47us]

Thanks for the comments. Wayne, I have read your article on the Common Boxster engine problems. Lots of information there, and I can certainly change the oil myself. I did it for the 3 years that I had my 73 Targa.

I don't plan on tracking this car, just want to enjoy driving it spiritedly. That being said, I appreciate your viewpoints.

Justin - thanks, didn't think of having them dump the ECU codes.

Jackb - drove a 40th anniversary edition. Certainly different than the 2004 normal, but it has the creature comforts. If I'm going to use this car as a DD, I will want those. I greatly enjoyed my 73, and welcomed the smell of burning oil (ahh, Porsche Perfume!!) but don't know that I would want that daily.

450-NOT - I appreciate your comments. Hopefully I will have the luck that you did. I certainly do realize that these cars are individuals, each with a different personality. I am a bit comforted by the fact that this car is a single owner. I have seen LOTS of 996's for sale that had 3 - 4 - or even 5 owners in their short lives. That, to me, portends trouble. This car was traded in on a Mercedes Sedan, and was only driven by a little old lady on Sundays - hence the low mileage

I'll pop the question over at Rennlist, and see if they can give me more direct advice. I certainly have noticed that Pelicanheads are preferential to air cooled cars.

thanks again. I'll keep you posted.

larry

[jwetering]

I bought my first Porsche, an early SC, in 1997 and by 2007 it had been transformed into a bare bones carbureted monster. The car was the very essence of 911 sporting. Problem was I didn't drive it much because of kids and work, neither of which fit my 911. I worked on the car a lot though, it always needed something tweaked or replaced. I plain spent as much, or more, time under it as I did in it.

Anyway - I gave my head a shake, sold the 911 and bought a Seal Grey 2002 996. I'm not looking back. In fact I liked the 996 so much that I bought another one after I was forced to sell the first one because of a temporary transfer out of country. I have a Silver 2002 now and it is a fantastic car.

*My car in current state alongside a mate's MkI



The 996 has been a dream to own. It is *much* faster than a 911 and it handles superbly once I installed Bilstien PSS9 coilovers. It is easier to work on than the 911 was, but of course it requires much less maintenance since it's a newer car. My Silver car had a new engine installed under warranty at 40K miles (before I owned it) but the paperwork is not clear on why. It doesn't sound like it was a catastrophic IMS failure like...perhaps an intermix issue? My Silver car is now approaching 100K miles and it looks and feels like new inside and out. My old Grey car is still going strong with the original engine with 75K miles or so on it. The new owners elected to install the L&N IMS upgrade as a precaution.

*On lift at buddies house replacing the coolant tank.



*Interior with console delete "installed"



In stock USA spec the 996 is a bit soft, but so was the 1989 911 off the showroom floor. A good set of coilovers, a set of semi slicks, and some tweaks here and there and the car be made as raw as you like. At present, I have a short shift kit installed and my clutch helper spring is broken. In this state the car feels as raw or more so, than my old 911 felt. Put on my stickies and the car feels exactly as a Porsche should..

*my car in ax trim




*AX with stock suspension and street tires



I drove a friends 3.2 Carrera recently and was blown away by how gutless it was. It is a nicely tuned car too, not a dog by any means. The 996 is just so much more responsive to throttle inputs although the 911 steering is much sharper. He and I recently took an antisocially fast rip through the mountains on British Columbia and I absolutely left him for dust on the big roads. On the tighter turns I couldn't shake him though.

My car weighs 3050 pounds and the engine is rated has 325 hp. That's a hp-wt ratio that's difficult to reach in a 911 (I barely made this in my old SC). The added bonus of the 3.6 litre engines is the Variocam plus. At about 3000 rpm, the intake valve lift increases to let more air and fuel into the cylinders. This is a noticeable effect.

Anyway, as has been stated, the Pelican air cooled board is no place to be asking for opinions on buying a 996. I think the guys here are better than they were in the past, but unless you are looking to be talked out of a 996 then I agree that Rennlist and Renntech are better places to seek advice.

My take is that I will have another air cooled 911 one day, but it will be for the purpose of hobbying and tinkering. The tides have pretty much turned around here with respect to Porsche demographics. At most of the events I attend the new generation cars outnumber the old.

* recent event



Remember the 911 was scorned by the 356 cars back in the day. Still are by some guys.

[boxster03]

2005 body style is so much better thus why you can pick up an 04 so much cheaper. If you can live with the body style your choice. Me I would save for the 05 body style IMO

[Dan J]

I own a Porsche repair shop in Ct. We work on alot of these cars. In my experience they are very good cars. Our failure rate on the engines is less then 3% based on approx 500 cars.
That being said I would avoid the Targa. When the roof has problems (not if) the expense to repair can be huge, 993 targas are worse. Buy a coupe or cab and enjoy

[roger's 2937]

The above posts explain the RMS/IMS situation very well. I had a 2002 996 and I had the RMS replaced "5" times and that cut it with me, sold it and bought a 930 and have never looked back. The 996 also had an extraordinary amount of road noise and for me in that caliber of car is unacceptable.

[larry47us]

Jasper:

Thanks for your tale and the pictures. I never get enough of pictures.

Originally Posted by roger's 2937

The above posts explain the RMS/IMS situation very well. I had a 2002 996 and I had the RMS replaced "5" times and that cut it with me, sold it and bought a 930 and have never looked back. The 996 also had an extraordinary amount of road noise and for me in that caliber of car is unacceptable.

Roger:

Just stating the obvious, if you had the same shop do the RMS repair 5 times, my guess is that you were going to the "wrong" shop.

Also, road noise could likely have been caused by the tires that were on the car. I have experienced changing tires on a car, and having the constant road noise "disappear".

I feel your pain, but am glad that you found a Porsche you can drive without the ongoing problems you experienced with your 996. Thanks for telling me your story.

larry

[roger's 2937]

Larry-I used 2 different shops, both dealerships and they had very knowledgeable techs do the work. I watched on all occasions and they used the proper go/no go gauges, etc. The bad part is I couldn't get Porsche to replace the engine for me. The last time I had the RMS replaced I drove the car home-about 200 miles, parked it, left it sit overnight and the next morning there was a nice oil puddle under the car. That was enough for me. As to the road noise, your correct-as the tires wore the noise got louder. The tires I used were the recommened Michelin Pilot Sports.

[450knotOffice]

When the rear tires start to wear in these cars, road noise can be awful, but I don't blame the car for that. It's a sports car and it has WIDE tires with fairly minimal sound insulation.

Something was really wrong with your engine to have had chronic RMS issues. Mine has never been replaced, and it's still dry.

[Dan Morton]

Hi Larry, I've seen the same car you are talking about listed online and I believe the reason it's so low priced is due to the exterior and interior colors as well as it's on a non-pcar lot. I think it's a great deal for the money but my wife didn't like it at all. It's right off of the highway I drive every day but I never stopped to check it out. If you look at the pics closely you will see a broken interior trim piece around the center console but it shouldn't be a big deal to replace. If the wife didn't object to the color, I would probably consider it myself.
I've used Auto technik as well and they are great shop. I had a PPI done on my '68 project car and they had a great time ripping it to shreds

[JBS911Cab]

Just sold my 85 cab and bought an 03 996 cab - hey I live in CA . Completely different cars. Air cooled sound just can't be beat. Carving corners in second gear with the top down at about 4K RPM is nothing short of intoxicating. That said, the 996 will blow the doors off the 911. Add an automatic top, PSM, air conditioning that actually works, etc and the 996 is a superior daily driver. It's easy to work on but lots of electrical gremlins. My oil pressure gauge has been on the fritz for a couple of weeks - minor panic when it dropped to zero bars as I envisioned a grenading engine and a $20K bill for a new engine. Then for no reason in particular, it starts working again. Learned that the idiot light is the important sensor not the pressure gauge - ignore the gauge but pay attention to the idiot light.

Anyway, pick the car based on your intended use. Daily driver - go with the 996. For a weekend drive with an overload of sensory inputs go with the aircooled car but plan on a lot of maintenance for a 25 year old car. I think the IMS/RMS issues have sorted themselves out with age - I hope.......

[larry47us]

Well, the car is scheduled for a PPI either this afternoon or tomorrow. I was a bit surprised by the price. They want $350 for a "regular PPI" and $499 for a PPI that includes a leakdown and compression test. Well, now's the time to find out all the ugly things about the car if there are any, so even though I think that $499 is high for this work, ProTechnik comes highly recommended, and I'll have them do the whole thing.

Interesting thing, though, when I asked about IMS or RMS, he suggested that I might want them to tear the engine down to replace the IMS. Gee, "it's only another $2,200, so while we have it in here, why not??" At least they use the upgraded bearing assembly from LN Engineering. But . . . . . . . .

I'll tell you why not. I don't own the car yet, and that just seems like a lot of money for a prophylactic procedure to plunk down BEFORE I even drive the car.

We'll see what the PPI looks like, and then I'll talk to my local Pcar mechanic, and see what he recommends. I'll keep you posted. But I am getting excited.

larry

[craigyirush]

You can tell by my sig. where my sympathies lie, but I would say (conditional on a PPI) go for it!

I drove a friends' 2000 996 coupe a few years back and thought it was a great car - could have been a Mercedes in the city (where that is a feature not a bug), but when we got it up in the twisties, it just flew. Great power, handling, and even sound.

Like a number of people who've commented on this thread, my friend also tracks the car.

Let us know what you choose.

[larry47us]

Originally Posted by Dan Morton

If you look at the pics closely you will see a broken interior trim piece around the center console but it shouldn't be a big deal to replace.

Dan -- Hmmmm, I see what you mean. Well, if that's the only thing wrong with the car, then I'm OK. I'll have to arrange to get it replaced. I'll have to look into the cost of it. I am sure that there are sufficient 996's that have been wrecked that I should be able to find one to put in. The next question is how to take the console apart so that I can replace it.

My first DIY job on the car, and I haven't even bought it yet!!

larry

[Trackrash]

I would want to see maintenance records. I would want to see that the oil had been changed every 4-5K miles. A local mechanic has warned that he is seeing worn top ends on cars that are serviced every 15K like Porsche recommends.

[Wayne 962]

This is a great place to ask questions, as you can see there are lots of watercooled owners here. My book is coming out in 2011 too (101 Projects for your Porsche 996/997), so you've got the talent pool that helped me with that here too.

That said, the 996/997 will become very popular for the DIY crowd in the very near future. The cars have superb performance, and they made so many of them that they are pretty cheap these days, and will continue to be into the future. At Pelican, we've invested a tremendous amount of time and energy into these cars (which includes the Boxster), as we see this as one of the bright spots in the DIY Porsche market. Air cooled cars will always be revered, but the new water pumpers are excellent too.

-Wayne