Freeze 12 success!

[Nick Triesch]

A friend of mine who is an A/C mechanic told me that freeze 12 was a complete drop in for R12 systems. So I changed out my schrader valves in the hi and low sides and installed the freeze 12 at 2000 RPM in my Nippondenso compressor then tested with outside San Diego temp at 85 degrees and went for a freeway drive and A/C temp got down to 40 on the scale. My friend told me that freeze 12 was lighter in weight than R12 so it does not use as much and also he said it cools the air better than 134A. Nick

[warner53]

Where did you get your supplies?

TIA

Warner

[HarryD]

Be aware that Freeze 12 is a mixture of two refrigerants. Because the mixture is not an azeotrope (big scientific word), each part boils off at a different rate if there is a leak.

why do you care? Becuase everytime you refill your system you will need to remove all ofhte remaining Freeze 12 and replace 100% of it with new or you will not get the same performance.

[Nick Triesch]

I went on line to ebay and bought a kit to replace or add to the R12 that was in the car. The kit was about $80.00 and it included 3 cans of freeze 12 , two cans of oil and two cans of sealer. My mechanis said not to use the sealer because it could plug up the switch that trips the clutch when freon enters the system. Turns out that schader valves were the cause of my leak. I bought them and an installation tool at Pep Boys in San Diego. Same as a tire! Anyway, it worked! My car is cool. I don't think it will ever be as cool as a real car but still it is cool.

[Nick Triesch]

HarryD, give me a break. I knew the system was empty because of my bad shrader valves and I started from scratch. From my past records the systen has been leak tested many times with no leak found. Also, it blows cold now. Also again it is 25 years old and blows cold so I am good with it and my mechanic said it was good. I bet my system will work better now than if I converted to 134A. That's all I am saying. Nick

[HarryD]

Nick:

Chill.

I am glad you found something that you like and appears to work for you. I was just pointing out an issue that may affect you down the road. FWIW, I deal with AC systems all day long in the summer and know something about the dark side of most of the commonly available refrigerants.

Unless you replaced all of your hoses with the newer, "Barrier" type, you are using the stock, "non-barrier" hoses. Like it or not, these older hoses are designed to slowly leak (that is why in the '70's and 80's we needed to refill our AC units annually). If ths is the case, then you will be needing to refill you AC System sooner than you expect. since the composition of the remaining Freeze 12 in your car will be unknown at this point, you will need to have a plan of how you will replenish the system.

[Nick Triesch]

Harry, thank's for the info. All I am saying is the my vintage 911 (85) has the worst A/C and ventilation the the world. There are even jokes about it here on Pelican. We drive these cars because of the way they drive, not the way they cool. If I have to add some freeze 12 in the future I will just add it. If I lose a few degrees one way or another, that will be OK. Nick

[RSTarga]

what Harry is saying that whenever you need refrigerant you will have to pull it all out and reload fresh. Although this is exactly what is also done with r134 as the load has to be precise.

[warner53]

Hi Nick,

Is there a chance you could go into more detail on the recharge?

Did you use the kit with the pressure gauge included?

Where did you find your schader valve on your car?

What pressures did you get?

TIA

Warner

[techweenie]

I had a local shop add Freeze 12 to a leaked-out system about 3 weeks ago. The Freeze 12 was about $9 a can at a local auto parts store in the San Fernando Valley. It was 107 degree day, and the stuff started working immediately. As has been mentioned, these 20+ year old 911 a/c systems (I also have an '85) are underwhelming, but oddly enough, the cooling has gotten slightly better over the past several weeks.

I am investigating some component upgrades and will report on how they work... but the Freeze 12 is cheaper than R12 and worked very well for me.

[mnmasotto]

Have you asked your local A/C shop if they will work on your car with Freeze 12? My buddy(A/C Technician) was going to give me some of this but my local A/C shop told me they could not work with it because it would contaminate their machines.

[khamul02]

I have used this in one of my cars now for a couple summers without issues.. I plan to gut the system so contamination isn't an issue.

[Nick Triesch]

It's strange but I always read negitive stuff about freeze 12 on the net but it really is not negitive stuff. I mean it will not hurt your car. Will drop right in. Cools very well. It's cheap. Why would you not use it? For some reason it seems the A/C guys don't want us to use it. Seems a lot of guys want us to convert to 134A. Just don't see the point. Freeze 12 is just a R12 replacement. And a good one. That's all. All I know is that my A/C works now. Cool!

[Nick Triesch]

Before I charged my system I found that my upper and lower schader valves were loose and leaking. I went to the auto parts store (Pep Boys) and bought 2 valves and the little tool to remove and install them. Same as the ones for tires! A pressure gage did not come with my freeze 12 kit so I bought one seperate on ebay. Don't have the readings right now. But I wrote them down somewhere. Nick

[HarryD]

Nick,

You are right, it will not hurt your car.

The issue with the AC shops is that they have machines that recover and recycle the refrigerants. To this end, they cannot tolerate cross contamination.

Even the equipment used to recover R-12 cannot handle cross contamination.

The shops are very leery of using something they normally do not handle. In the case of non-azeotrpic mixtures, the only way they can ensure customer satisfaction with no returns is to evacuate and refill the system every time. If they have not invested in the equipment, they cannot do this. They will only invest in the equipment that give them the best return and that means the ones comaptible with whatever the car maker uses.

Releasing the refrigerants into the air can be risky since if there are regulated substances in the stuff released, the enforcement actions can cause the business to fail. Even the apperance of non-compliance can result in a costly battle to prove they are not in violation. Why would a businessman risk this?

[T77911S]

Originally Posted by mnmasotto

Have you asked your local A/C shop if they will work on your car with Freeze 12? My buddy(A/C Technician) was going to give me some of this but my local A/C shop told me they could not work with it because it would contaminate their machines.

you have to be careful because of this. especially if the cans you put say flamable on them.


its funny, people say you have to do all this work to your ac system to convert to 134, but freeze12 is a drop in and it is mostly r134, huh.

[billybek]

Combination of R134a and R142b.
As Harry had said, this refrigerant will have a varied boiling point called "glide" in the industry.
Being primarily R134a, I am puzzled as to why it is a drop in with out regard for oil in the system. Usually 134a requires a POE oil to function in the system.
Harry is also correct in stating when you have a leak, you have no idea what leaked out. The smaller of the two molecules will go first leaving a blend that will not perform to original specs. This will require an evacuation and recharge with new refrigerant.
The system will have the same problems as a R134a system meaning the hoses should be replaced with barrier hoses to keep the gas on the inside.
R134a is one of the next refrigerants to be placed on the chopping block for automotive application, so fix them right and don't "top up" every year.

[techweenie]

I had thought R12 was getting hard to find, and kept a recharge kit squirreled away in the garage. But after getting my '85 in June, I've discovered CA doesn't care if you want to recharge with R12. It's readily available. One shop called it "liquid marijuana" claiming it represents a large portion of what's smuggled across the border from Mexico. I didn't particularly want to a. tap in to my stash or b. fund smuggling, so I opted for the Freeze 12. So far, so good.

[billybek]

Purity and quality of off shore refrigerants can be questionable.

"They" care, but not enough to investigate and prosecute. If contriband refrigerants are making it across your boarder, what else is?

When doing a recharge, who is to say that the shop/person doing the work hadn't done a leak check and repaired a leak (that is why it was low, right?) and recharged with any refrigerant.

It is really a personal choice. People typically don't throw all their trash out on the freeway but they have no problems with refrigerant emmissions because you can't see it. It isn't the refrigerants used (no emmissions from a tight system) but the lack of regard for the impact of refrigerant emmissions on the environment from poorly maintained systems.

[drauz]

Then there's this approach, too...
HC12a - Environmentally Friendly Hydrocarbon Refrigerant from Fox Tool & Supply