Who made these 959 wheels?

Shaun @ Tru6 · 03:41 PM

Exclusive to the Rothman's Paris Dakar 959's it seems. Any idea who made them? of what material?

Peter Zimmermann · 06-01-2009, 04:15 PM

I know that they were 6"x16" at each end of the car, and ran special Dunlop (obviously!) tires, but I don't know who made them. Speedline built wheels for later model 959s, including the 961, but...

Noah930 · Noah930's Garage

Are those 5-lug wheels, instead of the centerlock style? (I woulda guessed Speedline, too, since they built the other 959 wheels seen on roadcars.)

Waz356 · 06-02-2009, 02:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter Zimmermann

I know that they were 6"x16" at each end of the car, and ran special Dunlop (obviously!) tires, but I don't know who made them. Speedline built wheels for later model 959s, including the 961, but...

Yet interestingly, the display car in the bottom pic is running Michelins.

Shaun @ Tru6 · 06-02-2009, 02:46 AM

They look like 5 lugs that were used as centerlocks, either made for both, or converted.

bkreigsr · 06-02-2009, 05:28 AM

the 7 - 8 spoke patterns look like something ATS could turn out:

Bill K

GeorgeK · 01-03-2011, 07:05 AM

Getting this thread back up after stumbling on it. The wheels on the 959 rally appear to be modified Fuchs forged from the 924 Turbo/928 lineage. Look at the relief line around the openings.

BoxsterGT · 01-03-2011, 07:40 AM

Spot on w your observation.

Len

Steve@Rennsport · 01-03-2011, 10:50 AM

The centers look very different from each other

GeorgeK · 11:05 AM

I agree, but the outer edge of the wheel seems a giveaway.

Couldn't the center parts have been machined to allow for the centerlock bolt, which would need specific mods with regard to the cone/reach/length of the threaded axle?

Since the rim is quite modified, it wouldn't seem improbable that the center mod was the next step in adapting a very strong rim to this particular task.

I'll go one step further and bring your attention to the 5 lug wells, where you see the same shoulder from the larger well to the lug nut cone (not used in the centerlock, yet still present.

twistoffat · 01-03-2011, 11:18 AM

Dont know if this helps but the Wheels are apparantely 8 inch Magnesium wheel with extended spokes designed to run with the four pistion blocks and ABS from WABCO

Porsche 959 - Supersportwagen aus dem Hause Porsche

GeorgeK · 01-03-2011, 11:24 AM

I call MAJOR BS on that.
The wheel pictured above is not Mg. It is way too thin (and yes I have had many Mg Porsche wheels), and the lip is not typical of a Mg wheel.

What's more, that would be a very bad choice of material for a wheel that has to run 6K miles of..no-roads...

Reminds me of the Mg wheels on the 964 C4 leichtbau...

twistoffat · 01-06-2011, 12:55 AM

Then I call your BS Call. This relates to Canepas treatment to the 959 "Magnesium Wheels"
Just because the lip is not typical doesn´t make it impossible does it?

Canepa Design modifications

In 2003, Canepa Design initiated a 959 program. By making their own modifications to the 959's turbo, exhaust and computer-control systems, Canepa could enable the 959 to pass emissions requirements (thereby making it street legal in the US) and extract more power from the 959's engine. Total power output from the Canepa-modified 959 is 576 hp (430 kW) and 505 lb·ft (685 N·m) of torque, making the car capable of low 3 second 0-60 times and top speeds in excess of 200 miles per hour (320 km/h). Canepa also modifies the 959's lightweight magnesium wheels, allowing them to be fitted with a modern Michelin high performance tire capable of handling the increased performance....

GeorgeK · 01-06-2011, 01:42 AM

Oboy.....

Please look at the wheels being discussed (that are 16" diameter), which are nothing like the series wheel that Canepa modifies, and which *are* magnesium alloy (and 17").

twistoffat · 01-06-2011, 05:15 AM

I am aware that the Canepa wheels were the 17" street wheels. Your assumption that the offroad wheels not being magnesium are based on the fact that you say the lip looks wrong. You may be right but you maybe wrong?

javadog · 01-06-2011, 05:22 AM

I have no idea who made these wheels for Porsche, but I'd bet my left nut they didn't take a standard 928 wheel and re-machine it. If you look closely at the two castings, there are several significant differences and I don't think Porsche would have reduced the strength of the 928 wheel and used it in a much more demanding role. What I think is more likely is that Porsche asked the manufacturer that was making their series production wheels to make a batch of these other wheels for the 959. They might have used the same forging blank and some of the same tooling, to save costs.

I'd wager the modifcations that Canepa makes to the regular 959 wheel relate to the safety bead that was originally used on the wheels to allow the tire to stay on the rim if deflated. Dunlop originated this (they called it Denloc) and I'm thinking Canepa machines off these extra ridges. Ruf wheels of that era (also made by Speedline) had similar features.

JR

GeorgeK · 06:03 AM

Twistoffat has made reference to the mods Canepa makes to the *Mg* 17" wheels of the 959. This has zero relevance here.

The 959 rallye 16" wheel has many similarities to the 928 so-called *flat dish* wheel (pictured above), and I see no element on the 959 wheel that is not on the 959 16" rally wheel. I find it really hard to believe that any maker would include the very specific character line around the openings as found on the 928 wheel.
What's more the thickness of the spokes on the 959 16" wheel excludes it being made from Mg. as does the thickness of the outer lip. I owned quite a few Mg wheels from Porsche and there was *always* a lot more thickness in the casting, and that for wheels that were not exposed to the incredibly harsh conditions of the Dakar rallye.

It makes zero sense to mandate a wheel builder to make a very limited run of wheels for a very specific and tough racing purpose, and then have them made of magnesium.

EDIT: As for the modifications to the 928 wheel, I'd bet they were necessary for brake coolig/sand evacuation, and for adaptation of the center locking system (there is more than enough material in the rim in the center and hub part for this machining). History has shown that the holes can be enlarged, which has then been applied to the 944TurboS and the first year of the 928Clubsport models, which were both heavier and more powerful, without problems.
Please someone show me which feature of the 16" 959 wheel is *not* on the 928 wheel, or could not have been machined from a 928 wheel.

Reminds me of the so-called Mg Wheels of the 964 C4 Leightbau, which turned out to be nothing else than 928GT 16" diameter 8" and 9" wheels, of std aluminum alloy.

javadog · 01-06-2011, 06:11 AM

George,

I never made any mention of the 959 version of the wheel being made of magnesium.

As for the differences:

Have a look at the depth of the "relief line" and it's location with regards to the outer diameter of the rim and and the outer edge of the lightening holes.

Then, note the point at which the face of the wheel begins curving outward, about an inch in from the outside of the wheel. The profile here is different.

I'd be very suprised if the offsets are the same; they look different in the pictures.

There would have to be a lot of material machined away in the center of the wheel. I don't see evidence of that in the lug holes, or in pictures of the backside of the wheels. I also don't think Porsche would have removed material from the wheels in this area, as it would have made the wheels weaker.

Porsche made many variations of a basic wheel design over the years. Granted, most of them were for greater production volumes, but who's to say they didn't make these? It's not like they didn't charge a stupid amount of mony for 959 parts. Look at the 911SCRS and count all of the parts that were made specifically for that model, of which they only originally intended to build 20 cars.

JR

GeorgeK · 06:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by javadog

George,

I never made any mention of the 959 version of the wheel being made of magnesium.

Did not say you did. Twistoffat made reference to an article that claims the Dakar 959 wheels are Mg.

As for the differences:

Have a look at the depth of the "relief line" and it's location with regards to the outer diameter of the rim and and the outer edge of the lightening holes.

I agree to that. could be a different series of wheels, same as the differences between different year 911 Fuchs wheels. The lighting incidence on a white wheel also skews the perspective. We'd have to see the wheel head-on for a valid comparison. Look at the partial view of the 2nd forged wheel on the picture I posted and the line also seems at a different distance from the opening

Then, note the point at which the face of the wheel begins curving outward, about an inch in from the outside of the wheel. The profile here is different.

Don't see a difference here, I see teh same sharp angel outward on the spoke at 8o'clock

I'd be very suprised if the offsets are the same; they look different in the pictures.

Can't tell anything about offset based on this picture. I still think it can be made from a series wheel

There would have to be a lot of material machined away in the center of the wheel. I don't see evidence of that in the lug holes, or in pictures of the backside of the wheels. I also don't think Porsche would have removed material from the wheels in this area, as it would have made the wheels weaker.

Can't comment objectively. I think they can, because this particular wheel is hugely strong, being forged

Porsche made many variations of a basic wheel design over the years. Granted, most of them were for greater production volumes, but who's to say they didn't make these? It's not like they didn't charge a stupid amount of mony for 959 parts. Look at the 911SCRS and count all of the parts that were made specifically for that model, of which they only originally intended to build 20 cars.

Porsche did not make these wheels, Fuchs did. It is true that Porsche has sometimes oredred small batches of wheels for testing/other purposes.

I still maintain that he 959 16" wheels pictured above are *not* Mg and are at least from the same manufacturer (Fuchs) if not modified off-the shelf wheels. We have seen that there have been small changes in the same wheel model over the years (15" 911 Fuchs), which could explain the character line position change.
JR

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twistoffat · 01-06-2011, 06:34 AM

Well for those interested I made a few calls and two people have confirmed that the wheels were made by a defunct french company called Fagix who specialized in lightweightracing wheels. They couldn´t say if they were MG or not but I suppose its not as important as the manufacturer. Maybe someone else has more info on Fagix.