Blackstone and ZDDP

[HarryD]

I just read this article published by Blackstone Labs (they test lube oils).

http://www.blackstone-labs.com/Newsletters/Gas-Diesel/November-1-2010.php?utm_source=Nov+2010+Gas%2FDiesel&utm_campaign=490af17038-Nov_2010_Gas_Diesel_Newsletter11_22_2010&utm_medium=email

I don't know about you but I appears the writer (Ryan Stark) has decided that the work done by SAE to determine how to prevent cam wear those many years ago was bogus.

What do you guys think?

[James Brown]

ARGGGGG, more confusion. I rebuild aircraft engines but I never have been able to find out the additives in Aero Shell oils. But yes they do have flat tappets but there are several factors that Ryan does not take into consideration. 1. the engine is a very mild cam (low lift) and low valve spring pressure 2. the max rpm is 2400 3. engines run long times at constant rpm 4. compression ratio is around 6.5-7.5:1 (might be a factor).
The oil is also changed every 50 hours or at least every year. I don't think the article really draws any conclusions yet and needs more test engines and miles to be validated.

[Noah930]

He brings up some good questions (if oil sans ZDDP is so awful, why do some engine autopsies only show wear on select--not all--cams/tappets?). But this report is anecdotal, at best. No real examination of the cams/tappets. No long term usage--just a couple thousand miles. And subject sample size of 1.

[HarryD]

James: Thanks for the additional info. I hoped you would speak up. I suspected that the working conditions of an aircaft engine were much differnt than that of an automobile.

Noah930: To me the most distrubing thing about this "scientific" article is a failure to tell us why the oils contain ZDDP in the first place. If I am not mistaken it is from research done by SAE a long time ago to solve problems of accelerated wear in highly stressed locations. This fellow seems to have choosen to ignore that body of knowledge and use his sample of 1 to try to prove a point.

If this was a reseach paper I did when I got my my engineering degree, I would have been surprised if the prof's gave me more than a D and a long lecture on sceintific methods..

[Noah930]

Well, there's always the standard tag line at the end of any paper: This study demonstrates more research is necessary on this topic.

[DanielDudley]

Originally Posted by James Brown

ARGGGGG, more confusion. I rebuild aircraft engines but I never have been able to find out the additives in Aero Shell oils. But yes they do have flat tappets but there are several factors that Ryan does not take into consideration. 1. the engine is a very mild cam (low lift) and low valve spring pressure 2. the max rpm is 2400 3. engines run long times at constant rpm 4. compression ratio is around 6.5-7.5:1 (might be a factor).
The oil is also changed every 50 hours or at least every year. I don't think the article really draws any conclusions yet and needs more test engines and miles to be validated.

ZDDP forms a sacrificial coating on high pressure metal to metal contact. It does not even start to work until the oil film starts to fail, at which time it is burnished into the metal, and is broken down into it's component elements of Zinc and Phosphorous. More ZDDP is burnished into the metal as it is continually sacrificed and renewed.

A lot is known about this process. ZDDP is most needed in high pressure, high shear situations. Maybe some 911s don't need it, if they never get revved past 3000, or the oil gets changed every month, but don't you believe it.

The article is bogus, and counterproductive. Our cars need ZDDP, and as someone who has experienced bad cams in several engines, I can tell you it is no joke. The massive quantities of classic engines that went bad during the phasing out of ZDDP in conventional motor oils is well documented, and many engine builders from all over the world independently figured out the problem and found the solution.

I have some cookies here for you. They have no sugar in them, but I assure you that they are fine cookies. I did a lot of research. I just didn't try any of them.

But you can eat them...

[nineball]

Originally Posted by DanielDudley

I have some cookies here for you. They have no sugar in them, but I assure you that they are fine cookies. I did a lot of research. I just didn't try any of them.

But you can eat them...

point taken, but as a diabetic i can safely tell you that was a bad analogy...


Sugar Free Cookie Gift Basket, Contains Keebler and Rugers Cookies: Amazon.com: Grocery & Gourmet Food

[Jdub]

Are you involved in rebuilding the Kenmore Air fleet? Love watching those planes glide into the lake.

[big911fan]

I also just read the Blackstone newsletter article. The results wouldn't stand up to any kind of scientific analysis but maybe he's on to something. A shortened form of the scientific method.... maybe the scientific community should try it to save all that unnecessary research time and money. Might work on pacemaker development. Any takers?

New Method:

1. Define answer

2. Find supporting data

3. Jump to conclusion

4. Publish unsupported results

[theiceman]

Harry you are more generous than I .. not to restate my comments from rennlist but I would have given him a C if he had handed that in to me as a white paper ..
way too much anecdote and lacking research meat..

[HarryD]

Originally Posted by theiceman

Harry you are more generous than I .. not to restate my comments from rennlist but I would have given him a C if he had handed that in to me as a white paper ..
way too much anecdote and lacking research meat..

What I find scary is that there are many who, since they want to drink this kool-aid, will drink this kool-aid to their deteriment.

You really need to wonder about Blackstone. A few years ago, this is a comment that Mr Navarro had on the topic:

Originally Posted by cnavarro

I just wrote Doyle an email. Here is the jist of it:

I have a VOA on the Max Cycle as well as a few UOA’s and they show levels MUCH higher than Blackstone’s VOA. I’d ask for a retest on the virgin sample. It is wrong. There is no consistency with their testing- that’s why I stopped using Blackstone all together as of late.

To comment on this further:

When I was sending in samples to have VOAs done, with each batch I would sent a bottle of something I tested in the previous batch, to make sure the the samples were in line with each other. Staveley always nailed it spot on. Blackstone sometimes would be 50% off or more, then I would ask for a retest. I wanted the data on my table to be as accurate as possible and comparable.

...

[Steve@Rennsport]

Originally Posted by DanielDudley

ZDDP forms a sacrificial coating on high pressure metal to metal contact. It does not even start to work until the oil film starts to fail, at which time it is burnished into the metal, and is broken down into it's component elements of Zinc and Phosphorous. More ZDDP is burnished into the metal as it is continually sacrificed and renewed.

A lot is known about this process. ZDDP is most needed in high pressure, high shear situations. Maybe some 911s don't need it, if they never get revved past 3000, or the oil gets changed every month, but don't you believe it.

The article is bogus, and counterproductive. Our cars need ZDDP, and as someone who has experienced bad cams in several engines, I can tell you it is no joke. The massive quantities of classic engines that went bad during the phasing out of ZDDP in conventional motor oils is well documented, and many engine builders from all over the world independently figured out the problem and found the solution.

Well said.

I keep a pile of ruined cams here to show people the consequences of using the wrong oil these engines. This is an on-going problem as most folks continue to rely on poorly-informed sources for information as well as an insistence in sourcing oil at the most convenient places.

I suppose its good for business, but I simply deplore making a profit in this manner. I'd much rather see folks spend their monies on things that extend the life and performance of their cars.

Regarding Blackstone's VOA reports and other OA's, I've not found them to be as consistent and accurate as others so I use Stavely as a MUCH better service for this all important information.

[AlfonsoR]

And then there are still people who say "oil is oil", lol. Good information, thanks for posting.

I'm on my i-phone, the internet experience is just not the same, to say the least. I think i should have said....thanks for posting the bad information from blackstone. The point is still that a lot of folks rely on bad information, old experience, or sometimes just don't care to believe folks that have tons of experience such as Steve W or Charles N.

[HarryD]

Originally Posted by Steve@Rennsport

Well said.

I keep a pile of ruined cams here to show people the consequences of using the wrong oil these engines. This is an on-going problem as most folks continue to rely on poorly-informed sources for information as well as an insistence in sourcing oil at the most convenient places.

I suppose its good for business, but I simply deplore making a profit in this manner. I'd much rather see folks spend their monies on things that extend the life and performance of their cars.

Regarding Blackstone's VOA reports and other OA's, I've not found them to be as consistent and accurate as others so I use Stavely as a MUCH better service for this all important information.

Perhaps you can bring one or two to our monthly show and tell?

[Steve@Rennsport]

Originally Posted by HarryD

Perhaps you can bring one or two to our monthly show and tell?

Its funny, but I was planning on doing just that.

[Quicksilver]

Oil discussions with people who don't have a large quantity of real information tends to make me cringe.
It usually goes something like, "Brand X is a great oil. I know because I have used it for X years and it has really improved: (pick one or more) performance / gas mileage / reduced temps / oil consumption / good feelings / blah blah blah."

The lack of an engine failure in the statistical sample of one makes for a silly recommendation. Hard info such as provided by cnavarro and knowledge from directly working on a HUGE quantity of motors like Steve@Rennsport and John Walker should be enough to make most reasonable people ignore the other opinions.

[DanielDudley]

Originally Posted by HarryD

Perhaps you can bring one or two to our monthly show and tell?

When you see a badly pitted cam, your first thought will be, ''Man, I hope the oil filter did it's job.'' . We aren't talking about little bits of scoring here. We are talking ugly.

[techman1]

In reading on this subject in the past (lightly) one thing was brought up in counterpoint to the SAE test of new oils in flat tappett engines. What type of engines were used? Low compression, low lift engines? What type of pressures were the cam/lifter exposed to? Low RPM/Low lift engines wil probably show light wear on the newer oils.

[gregwils]

At the risk of hijacking the thread, I couldn't help notice in the current issue of Panorama there was a question regarding oil in the Tech section. The response was the Porsche factory recommends Mobil 1 for all Porsches from '84 on. The author also seemingly dissed "high viscosity" oils with ZDDP added and defined them as semi-synthetic.

The most troubling thing to me about the response ro me was why would the factory use '84 as a cut-off since the oil requirements of an SC and a Carrera should be the same to my simple mind. I am a Brad Penn guy and don't plan to change.

I guess like politics and religion this debate will rage on.

[big911fan]

Wouldn't it be nice to get a fact based engineering opinion from Porsche on this whole issue (IE- at least the air cooled engines)?

Instead of the typical marketing response about Mobile 1 it would be nice to have an actual fact based response from their technical people. Then again what's their motivation to not have our air cooled engines self-destruct? I suspect there is a difference between the oils "approved" for our air cooled engines and the oil that is best for them.

Regarding the "oil is oil" crowd and the "cheap is good enough" crowd, it keeps the economy greener.... just another form of automotive genetic selection.