What are the performance gains these electromotive distributorless ignition things?

[Leland Pate]

I noticed a gent was selling a distributorless ignition setup for an SC on the classifieds and was wondering what this type of setup gives you.
Higher RPM, HP, what?

Ideas?

[RarlyL8]

Precise ignition timing = optimized power potential.

[Clark Griswald]

I think the biggest value is not the precision of the timing. It is the 3 coils.

Normal ignition has 1 coil, and at high RPM the spark energy produced by that coil begins to decline. This is because at high RPM less time is available to build the magnetic field before triggering.

The Electromotive units have 3 coils, each firing 2 cylinders only. Hence they have 3x the amount of time to build the field and so don't degrade significantly at high RPM.

This is especially valuable for race engines modified to have a higher redline. Street engines tooling around at 3500 rpm are not going to see the benefit.
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Chuck Moreland '86 Cab - "Sparky", '77 Targa - "Sweet Pea"

[RarlyL8]

Maximum spark during precise ignition timing = optimized power potential.

[Early_S_Man]

Lee,

Was it a single system, or a dual-plug job?

By themselves, NADA, ZIP, ZERO hp gains! Combined with higher compression pistons, and aggressive cams ... a dual-plug setup can give you a few more ponies on street gas.

One thing for certain ... no free ponies JUST BY BOLTING ON THE ELECTROMOTIVE UNIT!

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Warren Hall
1973 911S Targa

[Natchamp]

Was this Richard Clewett's ad?
You would be able to gain some hp by "bolting it on" because of the tuneability of the system itself. But the results would not justify the cost. The real benefit is when you are running other performance aspects on your motor as described. Also, unless you have the same tuneability with your fuel then the benefits decrease as well. It's very hard to "kinda" be pregnant. If you're going to go with engine management you need to go all the way and enjoy the ride, it is pretty darn cool.

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Mark
The Beast
mark@hargett.com

[roGERK]

There's an awful amount of complete BS claimed by all these electronic gizmo manufacturers...

All internal combustion engines are basically air pumps - low pressure cold air goes in, you mix it with something flamable - BANG! - and high pressure hot air goes out - if you want significant gains in hp, you have to look at:

1) Capacity increases - there ain't no substitute for cubic inches. You can pump a larger volume in the same time period.

2) Rev increases - you can pump a larger volume in the same time period.

3) Flow increses - e.g. better exhaust, more valve overlap (cam profiles, multi-valves) turbo-charging and so on - you can pump a larger volume in the same time period.

Everything else merely aids the above improvements, and taken in isolation, doesn't do much. Sure, a hotter spark might make a tiny difference, better lubrication aids cooling and will reduce friction a tiny amount, but 99% of the time the improvements will be completely irrevelant especially in street use where 100ths of second don't count...

Sad but true... The laws of physics are strictly applied.

- roGER

[Leland Pate]

Thanks for the imput guys.
I was just curious. Yes, I saw the ad and it sparked my imaginataion.

It sounds like something that would go well with my high compression pistons, aggressive cams, 40MM Webers and a set of SSIs.
Ah, to dream...

I just want my car to run.

[Oliver911]

I think there are gains to be made with that setup Leland, but the biggest problem is finding a person experienced enough to tune the engine to its maximum potential. Tuning an electromotive is not fun at all because the changes are not "real-time". So every time you create a new spark/fuel map you have to upload it to the module then test it. Real time interfacing is why MoTec is the system of choice along with millions of other features and better wiring harnesses.

Dante Oliverio

[RarlyL8]

Maximum spark and precise ignition timing = optimized power potential.

[Natchamp]

That is just one of the reasons why I didn't go with Electromotive. Haltech is real time and "on-the-fly" for both ignition and injection. And it's about 1/4th the cost of a Motec. Autronic is another one that is very good. It actually has an auto tune module that I have heard good things about. For tuning, you just drive the car in auto-tune mode and it automatically adjusts the maps.

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Mark
The Beast
mark@hargett.com

[rattlsnak]

I had this setup for 2 years or so. It was great. The ignition by itself will not gain you alot of HP, but with the injection system and the full tunability it quite nice. My completely stock SC put out @180 HP stock at the crank. With this system bolted on only (still stock-except for exhaust) I dyno'd at @245HP at the wheels. It took awhile to setup but it was very nice.
http://members.aol.com/rattlsnak/ignfuel1.jpeg

[Natchamp]

Rat, nice looking package. Are those TWM throttle bodies? I am assuming your hp gains were contributed by the engine management systen AND the throttle bodies, fuel injectors, etc.

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Mark
The Beast
mark@hargett.com

[orbmedia]

Mark,

What are the relative costs of the Haltech vs. the Motec? Let's say you're starting with just the long block stock 993 engine and you want a low-rise injection/ignition system from scratch. What would that cost Haltech vs. Motec? Ballpark prices OK.

I noticed all of these custom systems come from Australia. Interesting.

[This message has been edited by orbmedia (edited 07-07-2001).]

[Natchamp]

Orb, all of the systems come from Aus. The base line Motec will cost @ 3000. The thing about the Motec is that all it comes with is the ecu. Then you have to buy the wiring harness, sensors, etc. and so you're looking at @ 5000 easy for a Motec system. A Haltech will cost @ 1100 and includes the wiring harness and most of the sensors. There are other systems including EFI, Zytec, etc. which are as much as the Motec. There is Autronic which is between them and the Haltech which is also a very good unit. Then there are units like PMS, Wolf ect which are less viable units. If you are doing your research you will find that Haltech and Autronic are you best bang for the buck. I went for Haltech because there seems to be more support for them and my buddie is a distributor. Another thing to consider is the complexity of the system. Motec is extreemlt complex and not very applicable to the street in my opinion. The more complex the more vulnerability and less dependability for the street. The higher end units like Motec are designed for racing and that's a completely different ball game than street. I would also point out that none of these units are for the "faint of heart". They require a lot of work and tuning them is EVERYTHING. They are so versital and tuneable you will be starting from scratch for your own particular engine. For me its fun but just know it b4 you jump in. Unless you are doing modifications to the 993 motor I'm not sure how much gains you would see. I'm sure you could improve a little bit but the real potential of these system is when you are running a modified engine as already stated. What r you contimplating?

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Mark
The Beast
mark@hargett.com

[orbmedia]

Thanks for the info Mark,

I am contimplating a project engine for a sport/track car. I want to start with a 3.6 993 engine stock and have some fun learning a custom FI system. I want a custom FI setup to allow me to make incremental changes down the road. I appreciate your warning about the complexity.

What are you using for throttle bodies? Does Haltech have a "sample" FI map setup for a baseline 993 3.6 liter? One thing that worries me is trying to start out with a totally incorrect map and burning a hole in a piston because your first guess was way off.

Finally I do not anticipate working on the engine on an engine dyno. I would plan to do all of the tuning on the track. Is this feasible?

Oh, one more thing. 993 is twin plug. Does Haltech support this?

[This message has been edited by orbmedia (edited 07-07-2001).]

[Bruce M.]

Yup, Motec is very complex--although frankly it's easier in some respects to tune than Electromotive. But it's complex because it has a lot of variables to map, in turn because it has a lot of sensors to put into the loom. And the loom is a ***** to build.

Furthermore, Motec allows such precision that I, personally, would not go with it if I could only tune it on the street. In fact, I probably wouldn't go with it if I only had a chassis dyno. An engine dyno is the best way to squeeze all it has to offer out of it, especially for a first-timer.

All that said, though, I must differ with Natchamp on Motec's "suitability" for the street. When it's dialed in right, it is just fine and dandy for the street. In fact, it's friggin' amazing! Street driving simply does not demand that much from a car compared to racing applications (except for cold start and idle stuff).

But it's a lot more dough, as I understand it.

[Natchamp]

I used a 3.2L intake manifold, as you should see on my website. I am also running twin plug so obiously the Haltech supports it. Haltech does not provide base maps for a particular engine. It is harder to tune without a dyno but possible. To tune you need to put the engine under load. You need proper engine parameter meterings like accurate O2, exhaust temp, air temp, etc. O2 is especially important. The real accurate ones typically cost @ 3500. I just recently found a very nice unit in Sweden for 1000 that is just as good.

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Mark
The Beast
mark@hargett.com

[Natchamp]

Bruce, from what you said I don't think we disagree at all. My point about Motec being applicable for the street is based on 2 thoughts. Unless you are talking about a extreemly beefed up/modified motor, a properly tuned Haltech would give you just as good results as a Motec without the much added cost. Also more sensors, more wires, more mapping complexity = vulnerability.

On the tuning I absolutely think an engine dyno is the best followed by a chassis dyno. However I think there are some advantages to my madness. Because I invested in a true wide band O2 I can do almost everything a dyno can do. I can also take my time and tune anytime I want which you can't do on a dyno at $125 hr. The only problem is constant and increasing load maps. Unless you have access to a deserted big hill! It's too hard to drive consistantly and work the laptop at the same time. But to acomplish this I will use the datalog feature of the Haltech. It lets me pick whatever engine parameters I want like intake air temp, boost, timing, injection, O2, etc. It will then record them every 1/10th of a second for as long as I want. I can do a spin, put it under load, whatever, and come back and download the data for analysis and corrections to the maps. I have a trim pot inside the car that I can also use to adjust ignition or injection as I'm driving so I can determine what the effect of say a 10% increase of injector duty cycle has on the whole rmp range and load range. Pretty cool?

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Mark
The Beast
mark@hargett.com

[Bruce M.]

Very cool. Real time is better, but that sounds very cool. And dyno time is big bucks, no doubt about it.

Bottom line is that your system is or will be probably 95% or better of mine, and costs half as much, since I did not install my system (or, in other words, I paid somebody else to do it and watched a bunch of it).

But I went with Motec because I am one of those guys you suggest might want to go Motec--a pretty seriously built-up engine, from the crank on up. 500+ hp to the wheels, or 600-650 to the crank (measured on chassis and engine dynos)leaves very little room for error.