What's wrong with buying a 72 911T?

[Andy Snow]

I am in the market for an early 911.
Want to sell one? Call me.
Anyway, I own an 84 911 cab that is a real blast and pretty to look at as well. I bought it to take on drives into the mountains and it serves that purpose admirably. I started messing with autox and tweaked the suspension and am having lots of fun. Now, I would like to make a proper “sports car” so I am looking at early (pre-75) 911s. I don’t care about paint or interior, I am looking for rust-free decent car.
I bought Peter Zimmermann’s book: "The Used 911 Story" and he really doesn’t like the 1972 911T. Says there is a problem with replacing the main seals and other problems. He says “...not too much can be said about the 1972 911T. Purchase of a car such as this should be considered very, very carefully..”
Is he way off base here? I may have found such a car.
Thanks for you first-hand knowledge and opinions
Regards -Andy

[pwd72s]

WITHOUT having read Peter Zimmerman's book? Yeah, I think he's off base if he slams the 1972T...But, guess we're all entitled to an opinion...

[Andy Snow]

Mr. Zimmerman really likes the '70 and '71 911T and thinks the 73 911T with CIS is a "10 out of 10" (he also thinks the 84 Carrera is a 10, and I got one of those ) he just dosn't like the '72. What am I going to do, buy a book for it's advice and ignore it?
Regards -Andy

[Clark Griswald]

A lot of people, including myself, consider the 72 to be the most desirable early car. It has the benefit of all the refinements made in those first years including the 2.4 engine, is the only year with the forward mounted oil tank and doesn't have the heavier doors introduced with the 73.

CIS has its merits, but it depends on what you want the car for. CIS is more reliable and requires less maintenance. But carbs or MFI make more power and have much beter throttle response.

[pwd72s]

Well Andy, you're right...you bought the guy's book, so you'd better follow his advice. But, while you're on your early 911 hunt? Should you run across one of those undesirable '72T's with the MFI, and it's in great shape? Be sure & let us know how much & where, okay? Thanks!

[Saffs]

Originally posted by Clark Griswald


CIS has its merits, but it depends on what you want the car for. CIS is more reliable and requires less maintenance. But carbs or MFI make more power and have much beter throttle response.

I think the BHP for CIS and MFI is the same on - and only - the 2.4 T. I'm sure throttle response is better, though. I've a vague memory of some people claiming there was a clutch problem on the '72 T, but this is just a vague memory, I'm sure someone else will clarify; and try a search on "'72 T" too, Andy. Also, 2.4 Ts in Europe had carbs only, I think that was 130 BHP compared to 140 on CIS and MFI Ts.

[GIBSON]

If you find a good 72, grab it. The engine main seals are the same as other 911's. The book may be refering to the
early 915 trans main or input shaft seal. It can't be replaced without taking the gearbox apart. As far as I know, they did not change that untill 75 or 76. Apart from that, the 72 has lots going for it. The 73 has the updated shift mechanism but you can always update the 72 if that's important to you.

[Early_S_Man]

Yeah ... he is a self-proclaimed 'expert' whose advise is pretty easy to ignore, unless you want to miss out on two of the best years of 911 production, all because he didn't like the idea of the first version of the input shaft seal on the 915! My car has the early seal version, but has never leaked a bit in 70K miles, so I guess it wasn't much of a detriment to a lot of years of enjoyment in a great car, after all!

[Bill Douglas]

The '72 cars are probably the nicest looking 911 ever produced. If it's the right color and has a good interoir, go for it. Guys like Warren know all the stuff about engine swaps/upgrades to get the real sports car feel you want. Plus a '72 or '73 911 car is probably one of the best (least silly) 911 investments you can make.

[Jack Olsen]

The 72 911 is one of the best cars Porsche ever made. It was the high water mark of the engineers' influence at the company. You're on the right path.

[masraum]

Don't forget that since the '72 anything is now 30 years old it has probably had most of the original problems fixed or addressed somehow. And then of course since you are buying a 30 yo car I'm sure you are expecting to probably have to do some work on it anyway, right?

[jkeyzer]

The 72 is fine. Your friends will be in awe of the oil filler flap. At least mine are... And I agree you can't really buy an early car without some expectations of having to work on it.

The MFI can be a pain but when it is working correctly it's a lot of fun to drive. One thing to note though is that if you are planning on rebuilding something like a T engine later to S specs or going to 2.7 you will have to replace or upgrade the MFI system. It will add considerably to the cost of your project.

[cegerer]

"Mr. Zimmerman really likes the '70 and '71 911T"

Mr. Zimmerman is a genius and his recommendations should be taken as gospel (of course, I 'really like' my 71T too!)

Realistically, buy the best early car you can find rather than targeting a specific year or model. The biggest practical decision may be whether you prefer the shift pattern of the 901 or the 915. If you're auto-xing and use first gear alot, the 915 may be the way to go - that limits you to 72 or 73.

[epbrown]

I've got a copy of the book as well. I would say that to say he hates the 72T is an over-statement. The impression I get is that he loves the 2.2l 911T (it's obviously his favorite of the early cars), and it translates into dislike for a lot of the changes made in 72. He doesn't like the mainshaft seal, he doesn't like the switch from carbs to MFI, he's not too big on the 915 tranny and the new shift pattern, and he hates the worse gas mileage. He's also not a fan of the early 73 models, either. And it's not just the T - he doesn't sound very happy with the S or E, and barely mentions them. I've read every single comment he makes on this board at one time or another.

I know that these cars are among the most popular early 911s ever built, and I like them as well, and I don't completely agree with his opinion. However, he does give specific reasons why he doesn't like them, and they're legitimate considerations. When we disagree with him, we at least get the option of making an informed counter-opinion.

And we already know his views aren't universal. The Road & Track article posted here a while back mentions the improved throttle response and torquiness of the '72 T favorably, and labels it the most drivable of the 2.4l Porsches, even over the E and S. Most people find the shift pattern of the 915 better for everyday driving, which is why Porsche switched in the first place, and if you're planning an engine upgrade already having the 915 takes some of the headaches out. And while the mpg goes down, I think it's still among the best mileage you'll find for a sports car of any vintage. Try driving cross-country in a similar vintage Corvette!

So the guide does exactly as it should - it lets you make an informed decision before buying an early T. Better you know this upfront than discover after the purchase that you like the 71 more, or an 81 for that matter. The sole impact the comments have on me is an increased desire to try a '69 to '71 car, to see the differences for myself.

He does rave about the 73.5 T, by the way, since he likes the CIS and thinks performance is similar to the pre-72 cars, and the seal problem is fixed; he also mentions that the linkage on the 915 improves over the years. His remarks aren't really that much out of line for any reviewer looking back at the first year of a model change. People say worse things about the 74-77 cars on a daily basis. We can't be this defensive all the time.

Besides, all these changes are just steps towards the pinnacle of 911 engineering, the SC. :-)

Emanuel

[Randy W]

Andy, this is my take from an earlier thread on the '72:

"With all due respect to Mr. Zimmerman, most early 911 buffs do not agree with his assessments of these cars. I have had experience with four early version magnesium 915 gearboxes, and you can eliminate almost all potential leaks by simply ensuring that the mainshaft is straight and the mainshaft seal is replaced by an experienced Porsche mechanic when you end up rebuilding it. It is not as problematic as Mr. Zimmerman makes it out to be, because these seals do not fail before a rebuild that often. The later version '73 5 speed box is pretty rare anyway ....... The switch to the 915 mod that allows the mainshaft seal to be replaced from outside occured during 3/73 production at 5 speed transmission #733 7375 according to the Porsche factory workshop manual."

The shift console can be easily and reversibly upgraded to the '73. There are no other issues with the '72. It IS unique: external oil filler cap, racing oil tank and location, real radiator oil cooler and different oil lines on 2.4S, and chrome lens trim and horn grilles with the 2.4 grey anodized script. I own two, a T and an S. If I ever bought (or could find) a silver, sunroof E, I would want it to be a '72.

[Andy Snow]

Thanks guys,

This is JUST the sort of response I was looking for. I was hoping my post would draw responses from such notables as Mr. Wells and Warren as I respect your knowledge and experience.
This board is a great resource. But, you knew that.
Nobody has offered me an early 911 yet.
Yes, I plan of doing some work myself. But, would rather buy somebody else's project than take one on myself. As we all know, buying someone else's finished, or almost finished, project is often cheaper than doing the project.
Thanks again
Regards Andy

[zotman72]

I remember when Zimerman's comments on the 1972 911T were first discussed electronically back on Porschephiles in '94 or 95 when this version of the book came out. We all thought he was full of it then too. I love my 1972 911T now even more. I sold the book at a swap meet several years ago for $3!

[Matt Smith]

I second everything said.
Besides, I've never once put oil in my ride without at least two curious gas pump attendants scratching their heads and asking questions.
It's the attention I love the most..