car does not start - feels like battery is totally drained

[darshie76]

Hi guys

I noticed something very weird on my car; and in just a couple of days it went downhill

In the beginning, when i would start the car, it would feel like if i am still cranking it while the car is on (making that metallic high pitched noise for a second or 2 right after starting the engine); I didn't paid attention too much to the thing, thinking that probably something was dirty and requires some cleanup (the car has got a bit of rain in the past month, but nothing too bad; just going to work and back, the rest of the time is in the garage).

Now yesterday i started the car and it was just cranking like if i would have no gas (it always starts after a couple of seconds; never had too many cold start problems; the car has been very reliable in the past 3 years); but eventually after letting it crank for 15-20 seconds it would start, and work just fine as usual.

Then this morning i tried to start it and nothing....the fuel pump buzz, the light of the alternator turns on but when i turn the key to start the car, it just click and makes a turn or two (like when your battery is totally drained) and then dies.

I tried to keep the key in the middle position (where you can hear the fuel pump buzzing), and after a couple of minutes i tried to crank it again, and this time it did again the noise like it did yesterday morning, but it didn't lasted for 20 seconds, since after a couple just died again.

Told to myself....ok is time to get a new battery, so I've got a Kragen battery with the right specs and replaced the old; tried again and same thing....so seems that the problem is not the battery.

The car is a SC, it just ran fine until this weekend, then today decided to give me this issue not starting. I didn't tried to jump start it but i am sure that it would start; at this point my suspicious is that something is burned somewhere in the starter (sorry, i have very limited automotive experience regarding electric systems); because to me seems like the coil that should amplify the battery electricity is not doing it, or the capacitor that should charge and release to create the spark is not able to hold the charge....now I am sure that the car is more complex than this, but I am trying to give an explanation to what i see....If the battery is good, and the circuit is able to work but then it is not able to reach the point where the engine starts it must be one of the intermediate stages (CDI maybe? Or the coil on top of the engine?); or worst...the Bosch thing that is in the rear right area of the engine? (momentarily blanking out about the name).

Anyone could give me suggestions about what could possibly cause this problem? The whole electric section (sparkplugs, rotor and cables, plus distributor) were changed last year; other than that the only work done on the car was the removal and re-install of the engine to do some work on it; but the car was working fine after putting back the engine; not sure if any problem could show up after weeks but you never know.

Any suggestion ? Thanks in advance!

[DRACO A5OG]

it may be your starter, i have same metalic sound after start and a wrench specializing in electrical said my starter needs servicing/rebuild.

wrench is my wife's uncle so i trust him.

[Superman]

Voltage in the battery at rest should be 12.5 volts or better. Once started, your engine/alternator should be making 13.5-14.5 volts. Your starter is probably weak.

[Jrboulder]

Ground strap from the engine/tranny. It happens to me on a 944 (don't laugh, I'm in the process of buying a 911). I had the same symptoms as you describe. I replaced the starter with a Bosch reman and it still clicked or when it worked it made that noise. I hooked a set of jumper cables from the engine to the body and it fired right up.

Jackson

[darshie76]

Thanks for your replies....this means that i gotta find a way to start the car and move it to a place where i can actually jack it up and replace the starter.

BTW should i get the new model sold here or the original Bosch one? They look the same to me but the newer seems better (for just 30 bucks more)

JR, do you know where i can see these ground straps? Have to lift the car or can be reached without lifting?

Superman, I will check if i can start the car....btw i do not even have a fluke or other measuring tool; just trying to assess what could possibly be (gotta replace pieces one by one anyway, so I would like to start with the one that has the most probabilities of being the broken one, and looks like is the starter).

Will keep you updated if i can resolve just replacing the starter. Thanks!

[TibetanT]

darshie 76:

One thing you can try to find out the condition of your battery is this:

Turn your lights on...like in the garage or somewhere where you can see then reflected against a wall.

Then, try and start the car. If the lights go dim, your battery is bad or very, very weak and could need a charge.

Take it to a place like AutoZone, NAPA, Cragens, or whatever to see if they can tell you whether or not your battery is able to hold a charge. If not, then you will need to purchase a new one.

Hope this helps.

[darshie76]

Thanks Ed, the battery is brand new thou, got it this morning from Kragen, as described in the post; that was the first thing that I tried, since is also the quickest and easiest

[TibetanT]

Oh, okay. Sorry about that...guess I should learn how to read. Ha.

Hmm? If you are getting the car to crank, then it is not the starter. But, if you are just getting a clicking sound, that could be the solenoid on the starter. At least, if this was my 1963 Ford Falcon Ranchero and it made a clicking sound, it is always the solenoid.

Guess the next dumb question I have is: When was the last time the compression was tested, the timing set, and the valves done? If more than 10k miles it is time to check the basics.

Fuel, spark and timing. Of course, without instruments this may be a difficult task. If you start buying parts to replace one piece at a time to find the culprit, that could get very expensive in the long run...especially if the issue is not resolved.

Now, you did say the car was in the rain a few days, if I understood that correctly. Then, there could be liquid, or rather condensation inside the distributor cap which is causing you the "no start" condition. Also, water could have gotten inside the alternator during rain when the car was sitting outside.

Just some thoughts of things to think about. But, however, without more in-depth diagnosis using instruments to test components, we are all just guessing.

Good luck.

[darshie76]

NP Ed; sometimes details gets missed in a long post

honestly the car was cranking in the beginning, then it started to not crank anymore: click and that sound that you get when you wanna crank a car with a battery that is almost dead (no idea how to explain; just put the slowmo to the regular cranking sound and just for one or 2 seconds and you get the kind of sound that i get ).

The particular thing is that if i turn off the car and try to crank again, it won't crank, but if i leave the key in the on position for a bit, it is like "something" is loading up electricity and then try to release it, making the cranking faster, but still not enough to start the car (again, same slowmo cranking noise but this time last longer; not that much thou).

At this point the first attempt will be to replace the solenoid (hopefully i can find it locally; otherwise is a real PITA); maybe is just old and has to be changed....I've got the car from another person and i have no clue of what was changed by the previous owner(s)...I am just being a good citizen doing the work that has to be done, changing oil and filters at right mileage and fixing one thing at time (of course if ain't broken leave it as is until it breaks); i have no clue when was last time taht the compression and the timing was done; I've ran with the car for almost 5K so probably in a bit i will do it.

Indeed the car was under the rain, but it was not left under the rain; I was driving it from home to work and back (5 miles one way), so the water that the car has got is basically the one that could slip in while driving under the rain;but i will check the distributor cap to see if there is any condensation; there should not since the car was working fine until this weekend, and the last time that it was raining was a couple of weeks ago, if not almost a month ago; but is worth the try; I would exclude thou water in the alternator, otherwise every 911 owner would not drive at all under light rain...but again you never know, and at this point is worth the try.

At least I have some things to check first thing in the morning tomorrow; maybe is just something stupid

[TibetanT]

Thanks for the clarification. I think I understand now and you are right about the rain "thing" no one would be driving our cars at all in the rain.

Anyway, one way to test the starter is by running a long wire from the battery positive terminal to under the car and find the large red cable on the starter. Being very careful, take the wire and place it on the starter positive and if it runs and cranks the car without hesitation, or that awful sound you having been trying to describe is gone, then you know it is not the starter. It would have to be something else causing the problem electrically like maybe the ignition switch is bad. However, the ignition switch should be okay if you are able to crank the car even if it is slow. Just another suggestion to try.


Do you have the owner's manual for this car? Or, a Bentley workshop manual for the 911SC? These have good troubleshooting sections in them and worth the money. If not, I will take a look at my Bentley tomorrow to see if there is any other things to try...since I am at work right now.

Hopefully, someone with more knowledge with these types of problems will chime in by then with some good suggestions.

[Noah930]

Not that it's likely, but just because you bought a "new" battery doesn't mean it's necessarily up to snuff. It's happened before that a "new" battery failed. Can you load test the battery at Kragen (they should be able to do it) just to be sure? Do you have a battery charger? All this cranking with no starting isn't helping even a new battery keep its strength/cold cranking amps. Do you have a voltmeter at home? What's the charge at rest? What happens to the voltage if your wife cranks it over? If you don't have a voltmeter, can you turn on the headlights and try starting the car? Do the lights dim much?

I had a similar no-start issue in my car last week. It would crank...and crank and crank and crank. Strongly. But no start. And the CDI box whined and the fuel pump buzzed. The engine compartment smelled of gas, but then it's a Porsche--the whole car smells of gas. I pulled all the fuel pump relays in the front trunk (the two aft-most red ones in my car) and swapped in new replacements. I fiddled with the fuses related to anything ignition/starter/fuel pump related. I double checked that all the plug wires were firmly on the plugs. No improvement. And I knew my battery (admittedly 7 yrs old, but still properly charged per my voltmeter) was not the culprit.

So I went through every freakin' fuse and relay in the front trunk (even the ones for the blinkers, windshield wipers, electric windows, sunroof, AC, etc) and every one of them in the engine compartment. I took each one out, roughed up the contacts with sandpaper, and plugged them back in. And then the car fired up on the second try.

So I don't know what I fixed. But I fixed it.

Of course, it's a bit trickier to check the CD box and coil if you're wrenching alone with little equipment. It's easier said than done to "borrow one known to work off a running car and plugging it into yours." Even a simple thing such as checking for spark is not so simple. And I've never tested it for that long, but cranking your starter for 15-20 seconds seems like an awful long time. Hope you haven't burned it out or damaged the solenoid.

[Walter_Middie]

darshie76,

I'm really concerned about the noise you said the car was making after it started - you said it sounded like the starter was still engaged. This happened to my car when the ignition switch failed. What happened was that the key was not springing back to the run position, and the starter was still engaged. The starter eventually self destructed.

Putting a new starter in will not solve this problem. Make sure you don't have the ignition switch issue that I did.

[Drisump]

Originally Posted by Walter_Middie

darshie76,

I'm really concerned about the noise you said the car was making after it started - you said it sounded like the starter was still engaged. This happened to my car when the ignition switch failed. What happened was that the key was not springing back to the run position, and the starter was still engaged. The starter eventually self destructed.

Putting a new starter in will not solve this problem. Make sure you don't have the ignition switch issue that I did.

+1, noise after start-up is not a good thing. Good luck

[Joe Bob]

Battery chargers and volt meters are a good addition to a tool box. Low voltage can be a contributor to a hanging solenoid actuator.

[Wil Ferch]

13 replies and we still don't know basics....like battey stand-by voltage. Like someone said, can still be under-charged as delivered, even new. Knowing battery voltage with car "off" and also the voltage when at 2000-2500n rpm will at least give us a clue....

[spuggy]

Originally Posted by darshie76

Then this morning i tried to start it and nothing....the fuel pump buzz, the light of the alternator turns on but when i turn the key to start the car, it just click and makes a turn or two (like when your battery is totally drained) and then dies.

You need to check the battery voltage as others have said. And then check the voltage to the yellow wire on the starter solenoid for good measure.

I developed excessive voltage drop in the circuit through either the bulkhead connector from the ignition switch or the 14 pin plug in the engine bay. Which I only found after replacing almost everything else, and when the fault stopped being intermittent...

Pretty sure an SC fuel pump shouldn't run when the key is on, also. You might want to look into that (probably just the connector not plugged into the air flow sensor).

[darshie76]

Thanks guys for the replies; heading to the store to get a voltmeter; I have the battery charger but requires a wall plug, and the car is far away from a plug....any suggestions about what type and brand of multimeter should I buy? (i just used them when i was in school many many years ago, and to make measurements on resistors and capacitors of simple circuits.

I have the Bentley manual; just gotta find where is it since we moved recently and all my panorama and other books went somewhere...hunting for the box this morning.

Ed, this is a good test; I will try the cable directly to the starter, so I can have at least the proof that is the starter or not; hopefully i will not get shocked in the process BTW how thick has to be the cable? And the key should be in off or on position?

Noah, I will check the battery as you suggested; my assumption is that nobody would sell a battery that is not working,but it can happen that the battery is sitting for long time, so even if is new it could potentially not being fully charged or have enough juice maybe.
When i try to crank the lights dims almost completely out....assuming that there is a big load that cause this; and i never noticed how the lights dim when i crank the engine, since i always turn them on after turning on the engine.

Walter; probably i will have to change also the ignition switch; you have a good point there (hopefully is just the electrical part and not the mechanical part also)

Will, I will try as soon as i get a multimeter today; I can take the battery voltage when it is off, but if the car won't start is kinda hard to get the one at 2000-2500 rpm; Is the solenoid something that breaks commonly?

Spuggy, the fuel pump always run when i switch from off to on; is a buzzing noise coming from the front right area; and when i asked what was that buzzing, the guy said that is the fuel pump; I haven't heard any other SC so I took for granted that is the fuel pump...another thing to check

I am heading to the store in about 30 minutes for the multimeter, then I go straight to the car and will start with measuring the current in the battery and will try the trick with the cable from the starter to the battery to see if it starts (in that way i can at least bring the car to the garage...is starting to rain today and the car must be in the garage so i can work comfortably)....if it doesn't it means that is something else on the road between starter and battery, and gotta find a way to push the car to start it

Thanks again for all your suggestions; hopefully i can bring back some good news or at least valid test results that can help further with the troubleshooting.

[TibetanT]

The cable/wire should be somewhat thick, like the starter wire is just not to thin. I would pull the wire off of the coil, runs from coil to top of distributor, that way the car will not start-up the engine with you under it...safety first! The ignition switch probably doesn't matter what position, since running the "hot" wire to from the battery to the starter is a direct connection. The ignition switch acts as a go between...opens or closes the electrical circuit to the cars starting ignition system.

Be safe and good luck.

[spuggy]

Originally Posted by darshie76

any suggestions about what type and brand of multimeter should I buy?

Like any tool, it's an investment. Eventually, you'll get tired of buying $40 multimeters every 3-4 years because you've found they've crapped out when you go to use them, and go buy an $80 used Fluke that will last forever...

For "one time" use, a $25-40 Rat Shack multimeter is about as good as anything else in that price range, they're all made in the same places anyway. They last a few years. Typically, they go "insane" or just don't work at all one day, so you buy another.

Originally Posted by darshie76

Walter; probably i will have to change also the ignition switch; you have a good point there (hopefully is just the electrical part and not the mechanical part also)

Hah. I changed the electrical portion once and thought that fixed my problem. In fact, there was nothing wrong with the switch itself (since re-fitted to the car years ago), it was the connection in the bulkhead and/or the 14-pin plug (which you could have grown root crops in).

You could try just removing the bulkhead plug and re-fitting, as that will likely get a better connection. But the perfect time to diagnose properly and fix correctly is when it 100% stops working, like yours has.

Originally Posted by darshie76

Is the solenoid something that breaks commonly?

They can get gummed up with the old grease hardening and stick, especially when cold. Sharp tap with a hammer or a wrench can free them, just like an old VW.

However, the symptom of "clicking" once is exactly the same as insufficient voltage reaching the solenoid from the ignition switch yellow "trigger" wire. If the dash lights dim as well, probably a flat battery.

I had a corroded battery terminal bolt break once. With plenty of voltage, but not enough current, you get "fast clicks" from the (good) solenoid like an airtool...

Originally Posted by darshie76

Spuggy, the fuel pump always run when i switch from off to on; is a buzzing noise coming from the front right area; and when i asked what was that buzzing, the guy said that is the fuel pump; I haven't heard any other SC so I took for granted that is the fuel pump...another thing to check

The fuel pumps do buzz when powered, and that sounds like the right area.

Mine is also not supposed to run when the key is "on", and it does. I often think about just before I fire it up.

[darshie76]

Thanks Ed, going now then...got a pretty thick cable and few more smaller ones to do the patch work.

Now how do i turn off the car IF it starts?