I'm quite certain this was done to my 69T. It's a little hard to tell from this image, but it appears as though there are no holes/clips along underside of the leading edge. These would be there for mounting the bumper smile of a post '73 911.

Tim K

good luck!

enjoy the project;)

Thanks Giovanni
This will be the one that will take longer... But it will be done... some day!

... and that will give me an excuse to play tourist in Madeira I. :D

Best,
Grady

Grady, you are very welcome!!

When are you coming? :D

Well, not so much to say about this project.

All the work that I have been doing has been related to investigate which possibilities I have to build this car.

I know that at first I thought to restore it to stock condition but at that time I didn't have the information I have today...

I have been collecting some body parts (steel) and the only one missing is the front bumper. I have been contacting many people, there are 2 or 3 that would fit but... still waiting for pictures and prices.

After my research I have come to a decision (hope it is the last! :) ):

What do you guys think about a recreation/interpretation of this:

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1310491469.jpg

The idea is to build a cost effective T/R reproduction/recreation/interpretation, under FIA rules. I want to put some added value on the car and I think this could be achieved under the competition theme, instead of the investment I had to do to restore it stock condition.

I could take the advantage of the rear flares - I know it is not the same but it gives a racing look as well - so I don't have to buy the rear quarters.

Some fiberglass should be added - rear bumper, engine lid, front bonnet. Plexiglas windows all around and some more items to save some weight.

Latter I will post some more specs. I hope some of you can give me a good advice.

I also would like to have some advice on braking power.
Here in the island roads are very twisty with lots of climbing and descending, so braking power is very important.

Any idea what possible up-grades considering FIA regulation for historics?

Another issue is the engine.... I have been reading a lot here and in other forums and it looks like getting some power out of the 2.0 L engines is not an easy task.
I think the car will be competitive only if the engine reaches around 180 Hp...
At the same time, its important to assume that the budget is a problem on this project, although I know that some investment has to be done to improve its performance... and also the limitation from FIA rules, have to be considered.

With FIA limitations, I will have to keep engine’s capacity and cylinder heads...

If anyone has experience on this kind of project, I would like to hear his opinion.

Regarding its transmission, I will have to gear it on a rally perspective, adding an LSD. I have heard the gears are easy to get and there are a lot of combinations available.
Considering that I achieve 180 hp on the engine. Does the stock drive shafts handle this power, or should be upgraded?

Suspension: my car came with Koni shocks. I do not know its specification but, can anyone tell me if they can be upgraded to rally use? Or should I buy something new and more developed?
Reading the "Sports purpose" catalogue 1st edition, there were only sway bars available for the suspension upgrade. I think that, due to FIA rules, I have to keep the same sway bar system. The referred catalogue says 15mm front and rear sway bars. Anyone knows if there are any more sizes available?

What about Torsion bars? I think that by that time, they were kept stock. As I will probably change this set-up, does anyone know which measure is recommended for rally use?

I really need some help to take some decisions and start collecting parts. So, if anyone can help... it will be a good help!

Thanks!

I wonder if the 8" x 15" Fuchs will be enough to "fill" the SC rear flares on a SWB rear suspension...

Any idea?

Yes, I know that finding info on race engines is easy on this board... finding info on rally engines, is not so easy.

I have been searching and I couldn't find it...

They have different characteristics from what we normally see being discussed on this forum - that is why I asked for some help. :confused:

Let's wait and see if some "guru" passes by and leave any advices!

Have you tried the Early 911S Registry?

Alex,

A ‘Factory’ two-liter ‘rally’ engine varied from a ‘close-to-standard’ 911S to the 911R/906 versions.
Today, I suppose they are typically built as closer to a race version unless prohibited by regulation.

For your use, I recommend you use the stock 911S (or modern variant) cams.
This will give you a wider range of rpm for your power than the 906 versions.
It will also lessen your need for specialized gearing for your events.

Needless to say, anything that gets you more power is good.
Restricted by displacement and cams (and related ‘breathing’), compression ratio (CR) is your only remaining option.
Since you can use twin-ignition, you can raise the CR as high as physically possible (~12:1) using high octane race gas.

It is not clear (to me) that you can use aluminum (Nikasil) cylinders similar to 906 Chromal or are you restricted to Biral cylinders.
The more modern (917) Nikasil is more durable and makes more power.
If required, a good economic choice may be properly fitted JE pistons in Biral cylinders.

All the rest of the engine is pretty standard.
Since you choose (by cams) a rev limit of only a bit over 7000 rpm, stock mechanical parts will survive.
Improvements (to a 2-liter) include: larger oil pumps, dual oiling of cams, piston squirters and the more expensive case pins, dove-tail and case relief.
The latter usually only show significant improvements in 8000+ rpm engines.

Engine cooling is another area of significant benefit.
Using the ‘Rubbermaid Solution’ increases power and reduces the ‘thermal load’ on the engine.
Did I say it also makes more power?
If you consistently use this, you may negate the need for a front oil cooler (less weight).

One thing to keep in mind is to retain as much ‘stock’ as possible.
You want to be able to easily replicate your ‘rally’ engine.
These Porsche engines are remarkably reliable.
On the other hand, they are race engines and subject to failure from their intended use.
Keeping it easily replicable is very worthwhile.
(I have 3½ identical race engines for my 914-6.)


I encourage you to ‘read-the-rules’ about using 2.2 and later heads as they are better.
Another is using the (usually undesirable) ‘T’ crankshaft.
Many organizations allow 1.0 mm overbore. Using 81 mm is an advantage.
Yes, using the early Solex can produce more power.


This would be a good place to discuss ‘FIA-legal’ engines.



Regarding brakes, I recommend you use the ’69-> aluminum caliper 911S brakes.
With adaptation, they can be fitted to early suspension.
Even better is fitting the ’69-> (bolt-in) front suspension if in compliance.
Needless to say, vented brakes are necessary as are getting good air flow to them.
Part may be the 993 ducts on the A-arms and fan cooling.


Regarding tires and wheels, start with the regulations.
Yes, 911s like wider rears.
Your choice of tires will make the most difference.

Will the rules allow the ’70-’71 type 911 transmission?
It is basically the same as a type 901 but lighter and accepts the larger (same as 930 & 917) LSD differential.


THE important part of all this is reading the FIA rules.
Another is finding the current interpretation of the rules.
Those may be vastly different.
For example; is the ’69 2.0 in the same reg?
If so, all those components (and LWB) may be applicable as choices.

The ‘art’ is rule interpretation.
The skill is building a car within the rules.
In your situation, it has an economic factor.


I think my best advice is for you go study other similar (declared legal) race cars.
(An excuse to go to some well attended races on the Continent. :D )

Best,
Grady

Hi Grady! Nice to hear from you!

Thanks once again for you wise advice.

I definitely have to read the rules carefully.
After your post, many doubts raised, many things I haven't thought about...

Regarding part's interchangeability, I don't think FIA rules are so "open" to allow the use of LWB on a SWB... Have to check.

I think things will be more on a logic like, the model was homologated and most principles of the base car should be respected. Taking as an example, the 911R, it was FIA homologated, was a very developed car compared with the factory rally cars of that time, but kept some principles from the base rally car, like brakes were similar, gearbox was basically the same (same gears, pattern, etc.),displacement the same, suspension layout the same, etc. etc.

Ok, I’ll try to put things on a different perspective, more practical…

2 liter must be kept. Although rules allow + 1 mm overbore.
I would go (if feasible) to go a little bit further than “S” cams…

Webbers 40 IDA have to be kept – a possible upgrade to IDS’s might be considered if important – need advise.

Twin ignition is also a possibility considered on the budget but only if it really compensates on Hp gain, considering the other engine components that will be used.

I would like to have this engine running on the 98-100 octane unleaded fuel.

Although I think the use of other brand cylinders is allowed by the rules, (as long they keep the “look” of the stock parts), I was considering to keep Biral’s (only for budget reasons) with an overbore of 81mm, changing pistons to a better quality ones, with increased CR – JE’s is a possibility.

I am thinking about an engine capable of doing more than 7500 rpm… Am I being too much optimistic?...

About the other upgrades, I would need some help about a few details that I really don’t have any knowledge… :confused:

- Which oil pump is better for this kind of engine?
- Dual oiling of cams????
- Dove-tail? Case relief?

Rubbermaid Solution is going to be considered while the car is for my personal use. An oil cooler complete system should be collected any way in case I decide to sell the car one day.

I also been thinking about 2.2 heads… I think this should be a possibility, specially if the final output of the engine, keeping the stock heads, is not around 170-180 hp – better not even start… ;)

As I think that even if I decide to sell it, it will be locally, where the rules are not so strict… so… not a big deal, even if I sell it to the Continent, it will be more or less the same…

Mine is a T crankshaft, right?

Grady, do you think I should consider Solex instead of Webbers…? I know someone in Europe that has been working on Solex cases in order to increase its venture to 42 or 43 mm but I don’t know the results…

Yes I think S calipers are allowed. That would be the best possibility because I don’t think a 69-» would be allowed.


If the rules would allow the 70-71 type 911 transmission… Yes, probably! But that’s not on the budget! :D By the way… cases are interchangeable? Thinking about the big LSD…

Thanks in advance for any contributors.

I started already reading the regulations... but it will take some time as the documents are pretty extensive...

From now, I have already got the following conclusions:

911 T/R was homologated on the 1st of January 1968 as a Group 3.
Homologation form number 577 with 4 extensions - I will have to buy it at the National Automobile Federation and then I will find out what's on the 4 extensions.

The annex K from FIA states the following about 911 cars:

- The 901/911 short wheel base model introduced in 1963 is eligible as a GTS in period F, to the FIA homologation form nº 183 of 1965 only. (i.e. excluding subsequent extensions). From nº 503 (Weber carburetors) is only valid to period G.

- Car of period F, may use the camber adjustment facility featured on the front suspension top mounts, introduced on chassis number 302695.

The use of the parts listed bellow is permitted (GTS, Period F, homologation form numb. 183):

- Fuchs 5 1/2

- Lobro half shafts

- The 901/20 type engine, and the corresponding rocker arms, may be used only in post 1966 911R.

- 911 Carreras model G of the year 1974 and beyond may use 7 inches wheels at the front and 8 inches wheels at the rear, as supplied by the make concessionaire.

- 915 gearboxes are not allowed on 911 cars before 1972


That is all for now.
More news to come.

sounds good :)

Thanks Giovanni!
I have been following yours as well with attention... you are closer to the great moment than I am! :)

Enjoy!

Well, finally get some budget to send this car to the body shop. Front steel bumper is on the way from Canada.

Here it is, already on the jig:

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1318973060.jpg

Whioe I am preparing the second-hand parts I have been collecting (sand blast, correcting shape, etc.), they used some panels from another 911 they have at the shop (a 72 T).

I have been buying some new panels - retro fit front cross panel and also trunk floorpan, fuel tank support and left side fuel tank support holder. These parts were so messed that it was obvious that they had to be changed.

Today, after they have been doing some work, I've been asked to go there to see some issues on front left side...

No so good news...
The left wheel housing is completely out of place... And the bonnet doesn't align on the same side.

Seems that it will be a more complicated task... more that I was expecting!

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1318973867.jpg

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1318973894.jpg

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1318973921.jpg

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1318973956.jpg

At the right side, things look much better and I think it will not be difficult to align the panels.

Any comments are welcome.

THREE CHEARS

Alex, that picture of the 911 on the jig makes me proud knowing you and of your effort.
We all should all jump in and help with the logistics from Europe and USA make this work in the Madeira Is.

The chassis looks good.

Best,
Grady

Thanks Grady for your enthusiasm.

In fact, on the first visit to the body shop I was a bit disappointed with the body alignments... making me think that it would be a much more expensive job.

Today, I have been back there and took some dozens of printed photos I collected here on the board.
I become more motivated because on the last two days they were able to solve many issues and things are definitely becoming much better.

I had good references from this body shop. They have a man there from the "old school" and now he is showing his skills.

All the panels that are going to be used are already sand blasted and although they look very stressed, I think I can trust this guy to recover them.

On my next visit I'll take some more photos to show you the progress.
I believe this thread must not be very exiting to follow because of the slow progress but I am doing my best to have this project done as soon as possible.

That's the problem of managing 3 projects at the same time... and a forth - my 993 is about to run again after a major overhaul... I expect to drive it again today... or not... maybe being too optimistic!