AHHHG. I blew something up

Kurt B · 02-03-2002, 08:26 PM

Not the engine did one side valves yesterday and all is fine, however I am machineless.

Need help diagnosing this, but it's going to TRE as soon as possible.

Was 'racing' a bit, pushed in clutch and tried to quickly shift into third and NADA. Wouldn't go.
Something popped, I dunno what.
anyway, when I released the pedal, it didn't come back. Stayed down there.

Got it home. Checked it out. Not the pin and not the cable. There was simply no way to disengage the clutch.

So i tightened cable up and tried to see if I could shift again. It grabbed and shuddred and shook violently then then went. Then somehow it got to the point where the clutch won't clutch at all.

Anywhere, where I'm at now is, even with a loose clutch cable, I can't get the clutch to clutch. It won't even grab enough to push the car 1 MPH. What did I break?

YIIIIIIIIIkes.

JDaniel · JDaniel's Garage

Sorry to hear that. I believe several weeks ago someone advised you to start saving for a new tranny...

nhromyak · nhromyak's Garage

$30.00!

Yep, you broke the clutch fork. I did this too.

I tried "adjusting" the clutch cable. I presume I tighted the nut too far, this was B PP (Before PelicanParts). I drove to work. Then leaving work (Friday - it always happens on either Friday's or Sunday). I jumped in the car. Pushed in the clutch. BAMM!!!

The pedal went about 1/2 way to the floor with no resistance. Drove it in 2nd gear. You can kill the engine at stop lights, and start it in 2nd gear, you get some jerking when starting then you can drive. BEWARE: you can kill the starter. Hopefully you can time your lights right so you hit them when they are green.

Anyways, I dropped it off at the mechanic, and he said this happens somewhat to the older cars. The heat cold thing. the clutch fork cracks on the shaft part, not on the fork part as you might expect.

I ended up getting all my updates (cyl. Head Temp, and new clutch, PP, TO) at the same time = $1300.00 (ouch).

Well, the bad thing is you need to drop and seperate the engine/tranny. The good thing, the part can be had for ~$15.00.

Good Luck.

I hope it is this, or something easier!

Kurt B · 02-03-2002, 08:48 PM

yeah, it was jack..the question is, what did I break? Anyone know...give me a clue if anyone has any idea.

Kurt B · 02-03-2002, 08:52 PM

thanks man for the kind hopes! Let's hope it's that. Hopefully, I can find someone to do it early tomorrow. It's gonna cost me a bundle to have em separate it for me, and while they're at it, I'm going to have them fix the busted motor mount.

Jack Olsen · 02-03-2002, 09:03 PM

The time for "I-told-you-sos" is not when a man's car has stopped running. It could be related to quick starts, or it could simply be a coincidence.

Is it stuck 'engaged,' or stuck 'disengaged?'

Kurt B · 02-03-2002, 09:06 PM

Stuck...disengaged. So it's always as though it's in neurtral. And yes, you can start with the I-told-you-sos anytime because you did. However, I will point out I brought this matter to fruition faster with my driving, but it was on its way. Remember how I thought the roll pin will sheering again? Well, it wasn't...whatever was giving way to me was this item right here, and I just helped it along.

When you're right, you're right Jack! And your words echoed in my brain for many stoplights believe me!

Tacoma911 · 02-03-2002, 09:14 PM

From your description, it sounds like you have a clutch problem not a transmission problem. Are you able to make clutchless shifts once the car is under way?
If you have eliminated the pedal assembley and clutch cable, that pretty much leaves the parts in the bell housing as culprits. The most likely candidate is the clutch throw bearing release fork. Usually one or the other of the arms starts a crack near the splined portion of the fork. This gradually (or not so gradaully) widens which can initially be taken up with the clutch cable adjustment. At some point the crack is beyond the range of the cable adjustment. No clutch.
I suppose there is a possibility of a collasped pressure plate or striped splines on the the throw out shaft but these are quite a bit less likely to occur.
At any rate, it sounds like it is engine drop time. If it is the clutch fork that is bad, our fine board sponsor, Pelican Parts has the fork at about $66 and a couple of shaft seals.
Depending on miles and usage since the last time the engine was down, I would do the following at the same time or least take a hard look at:
transmission output shaft seal
TO bearing guide tube
TO bearing
Clutch pack
Rear main seal
flywheel needle bearing
all the misc. oil seals, gaskets, and hoses at the back of the engine.
It sounded like you may have some transmission issues that are seperate from the above items. Obviously a good time to take care of those as well.
Good luck

Tacoma911 · 02-03-2002, 09:25 PM

Drawing of the TO Bearing Fork via the PP forum
911 Parts
Parts Diagrams
SC and Turbos
Transmission
Clutch Release
Part 1 is the TO bearing fork

Tacoma911 · 02-03-2002, 09:42 PM

I just read Kurt's 5:06 post which wasn't there when I started my first reply.
I am not clear on whether you have tranny problem or a clutch problem:
When you say that the car is in neutral all the time, do you mean that if the shifter was in second gear, the motor running, your foot was not on the clutch pedal (clutch plates engaged), that the car would not be moving forward under the engine's power?
If that is the case, then some tranny/clutch problems are possible:
blown friction plate
rubber centered friction Plate (still used in "84??)
collapsed pressure plate
Stripped clutch splines on tranny input shaft
Really bad stuff in the tranny

On the other hand from your first post, it sounds like TO bearing release fork failure -

nhromyak · nhromyak's Garage

Ohhh bummer. I thought it was not DISENGAGING (i.e. egnaged all the time).

Could that be the intermediate shaft?

I am DEFINATELY NOT a tranny person though.

Good Luck.

Kurt B · 02-03-2002, 09:53 PM

full explanation is this.
First off, with the car off, you can shift all gears no problem.

I got it home and at the time it wouldn't shift. The pedal was all the way to the floor as though the cable had snapped, but it hadn't.

I adjusted the cable as much as I could to get some pedal and drove it. Then you could shift while it was moving, sort of...then the problem changed to unable to move. So it just gradually moved less and less until it got to the point (this was driving it around the block), that the clutch wouldn't grab. So now it's in a situation I could best describe as the clutch pedal is all the way to the floor. So you can shift the gears but releasing the pedal doesn't change anything. Even though it comes up halfway, the car acts like it's still all the way in and won't drive.

so to sum up: it acts as though the pedal is all the way down and it won't engage the gear. BEFORE though, it was the opposite...before I 'adjusted it' to see if that was the problem. So it changed 180 degrees.
Help?

nhromyak · nhromyak's Garage

Wow... Do you have one of those rubber centered discs???

That's what it sounds like.

I really have no idea.

Tacoma911 · 02-03-2002, 10:02 PM

Kurt,
In the third and fourth paragraph of your last post, are you "shifting' and trying to disengage and engage the clutch while the motor is running?

Kurt B · 02-03-2002, 10:16 PM

You can't shift while motor is running I don't think. Well, you can if it's moving a little...but not from a dead stop. Like when the clutch is just barely engaged. Do you kind of see how the clutch is sort of stuck in a certain position it feels like?
Like the position of being able to shift while moving, but not from a dead stop.

Early_S_Man · 02-03-2002, 10:19 PM

Kurt,

What Nick said you broke is the most likely choice ... #1 in the diagram below ... the fork that engages the throwout bearing:

Kurt B · 02-03-2002, 10:29 PM

Thanks for the diagram. Too bad I can't just replace it without tearing everything apart. This is a job best left to a professional. If I had a few days off...or the weekend ahead of me I'd go ahead and drop it myself and have a look, but in this case...

I'll post results tomorrow. Which sounds a lot like the time I posted this when I lost first gear! Of course, that tranny rebuild cost 2700$.

In any case...once I get it fixed, it'll be fun breaking something else later on. Always is. Just can't say not to rice burner boys. Ever.

That's what credit cards are for anyway.

Tyson Schmidt · 02-03-2002, 10:34 PM

Kurt. First you stated that the clutch wouldn't disengage. You adjusted it tight enough to disengage. Then, it wouldn't engage. Like a slipping or non-grabbing clutch.

Here's what comes to mind:

The damper springs (or rubber center if that's which disc you have) have broken from abuse, and have fallen out of the clutch disc. They then lodge themselves between the disc and pressure plate, making the clutch pedal low and not disengage fully.

Then, after tightening up the slack, the clutch releases enough to disengage and eventually the broken parts dislodge themselves.

Now that the broken springs have dislodged themselves, the clutch is cable is too tight (from your previous adjustment band-aid) to disengage.

Maybe try loosening the cable back to normal and see if it grabs. (But even if it works, it's still clutch time.)

Tacoma911 · 02-03-2002, 10:35 PM

Kurt,
OK. so the pressing the clutch pedal is not disengaging the clutch plates.

And back the earlier post:
The most likely candidate is the clutch throw bearing release fork. Usually one or the other of the arms starts a crack near the splined portion of the fork. This gradually (or not so gradaully) widens which can initially be taken up with the clutch cable adjustment. At some point the crack is beyond the range of the cable adjustment. No clutch.
I suppose there is a possibility of a collasped pressure plate or striped splines on the the throw out shaft but these are quite a bit less likely to occur.

Warren post shows the TO bearing fork.

Not much further to say until you or your wrench actually sees whats in the bell housing. Of the things that could go wrong in the bell housing, clutch, transmission, the TO bearing is probably the least expensive.

Best of luck. Please post your actual findings when you get them.

82SC · 02-03-2002, 10:41 PM

wow I really feel for you...

I cracked my clutch fork and had to drive from UCLA to South Bay with no clutch...in traffic!!! I turned my engine off at everylight, put it in first then started the engine to go...it was hell...the tranny drain plug did not look too good after that

but before this crisis I had done very little work on the car...oil changes and the Heat Exchanger back date...

but I decided to tackle the clutch myself...and it was not bad...took me about 4 days...working on the weekend and nights...I know if I was more mechanically inclined I could have done it in half the time...

these engine drop parties are becoming more and more popular...maybe you should DIY...I had a blast doing it...

when I cracked it open found a nearly broken in two clutch fork and a sheared TO bearing...

keep us updated...